Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

How much do you think discussions like the ones we have in here between ordinary people can help for the solution of the Cyprus problem?

I believe that such discussions are very useful to help us understand the other side but they will not help in any way for the solution.

The Cyprus problem is a complicated international problem and the solution will be a result of the balance of power between the different parties involved.

Each site will try to take as much as they can. They will not accept less because they were convinced they will accept less only if they are forced.

For example if tomorrow theoretically the US, EU, China etc declare that they recognize the TRNC. Do you think that the TCs will come and say "ok, but you know, we were convinced that taking X Y and Z is unfair and therefore we will give these back to the GCs even if now we can keep them legaly"?

I am sorry, but the people who think that discussions like these can solve the Cyprus problem do not live in a real world.

Who is right and who is wrong does matter a little (ECHR etc), but proving to the other side that you are right is useless even if they would unofficially admit that you are right. Official they will never admit it, and they will try to take as much as their power can get them.

Sorry for being so pesimistic. I was not when I first joined this forum. However now I know better.

[gabaston]

For example if tomorrow theoretically the US, EU, China etc declare that they recognize the TRNC. Do you think that the TCs will come and say "ok, but you know, we were convinced that taking X Y and Z is unfair and therefore we will give these back to the GCs even if now we can keep them legaly"?

piratis on the above i tend to agree with you.
It is my understanging that this is the reality facing cyprus. If gc can accept for now a fedarel or bi zonal agreement, then at sometime in the future when all the hate has gone, and after we have rebuilt a lasting trust and respect that we can look at ways of mutally beneficial integration. The only alternative other than tc's meeting gc demands of land restoral, will be the above, from which there will be little chance ever for integration.

despite what you believe the vast majority of tcs that i know have only been given land in the north comparable to what they left in the south, and many living outside Cyprus in fact have not been given any land in return for what they left, because they never applied in time, or other administrive reasons. The average tc does not want any more or less than what s/he left behind.

The other lands which have been given to settlers is another issue. If as reported in this forum Talat is willing to give back those lands, or similar where appropriate in the same area, personally i have nil objections.

[Piratis]

despite what you believe the vast majority of tcs that i know have only been given land in the north comparable to what they left in the south

Who decided what is comparable?

If gc can accept for now a fedarel or bi zonal agreement, then at sometime in the future when all the hate has gone, and after we have rebuilt a lasting trust and respect that we can look at ways of mutally beneficial integration.

Do you think that if TCs take something that will be by then their legal right that there is any chance of giving it up voluntarily without taking something of equal value in return?

The other lands which have been given to settlers is another issue. If as reported in this forum Talat is willing to give back those lands, or similar where appropriate in the same area, personally i have nil objections.

And from whom is he going to take the "similar" lands to give them to GCs?

In general I insist on what I said in my initial post. Power is what matters. Who is right and who is wrong matters also when it comes to ECHR, UN etc. Now we don't have the power. If we sign anything like the Annan plan then we will sign off our rights also.

When the balance of power will change it will be much better for our side not to have signed anything (even if "TRNC" becomes Taiwan), than signing something that will not give us the legal right to take back what was forcefully taken away from us.

[gabaston]

Who decided what is comparable?

as you know there was a points system. points given in respect of land left in the south. with those points new land was bought.

And from whom is he going to take the "similar" lands to give them to GCs?

- i belive there is still plenty of land available for such, and on such a small island you are never that far from sea or mountain or other beauty spot.

Do you think that if TCs take something that will be by then their legal right that there is any chance of giving it up voluntarily without taking something of equal value in return?

it wont be a question of giving anything, it will be a question of trade-

you want to live peacefully as my neighbour and you have the money to buy next door, then welcome - if you want to buy next door and still go on about gc human rights and greek domination and 82% democracy etc then dont buy next door stay where you are.

[Alexandros Lordos]

How much do you think discussions like the ones we have in here between ordinary people can help for the solution of the Cyprus problem?

I believe that such discussions are very useful to help us understand the other side but they will not help in any way for the solution.

The Cyprus problem is a complicated international problem and the solution will be a result of the balance of power between the different parties involved.

Each site will try to take as much as they can. They will not accept less because they were convinced they will accept less only if they are forced.

For example if tomorrow theoretically the US, EU, China etc declare that they recognize the TRNC. Do you think that the TCs will come and say "ok, but you know, we were convinced that taking X Y and Z is unfair and therefore we will give these back to the GCs even if now we can keep them legaly"?

I am sorry, but the people who think that discussions like these can solve the Cyprus problem do not live in a real world.

Piratis, I believe that to get a solution we need a combination of "high international politics" and "dialogue between all levels of society".

The "high politics" that we have our hope in now, is, on the one hand, Turkey's EU accession bid, and, on the other hand, the US's desire to reform the Middle East as a whole.

Having said that, an international drive for a settlement will need to find us - the Cypriot people - prepared for it, because after all the detailed negotiations will be conducted by Cypriot politicians, with reference to their Cypriot voters.

[Piratis]

Having said that, an international drive for a settlement will need to find us - the Cypriot people - prepared for it

Prepared for what? The settlement can be anything. Should we get prepared to accept something like the Annan plan? Or should we get prepared to accept a good solution based on democracy and human rights? Also, how would debates make us more prepared?

I guess I am in general less optimistic than you are.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Having said that, an international drive for a settlement will need to find us - the Cypriot people - prepared for it

Prepared for what? The settlement can be anything. Should we get prepared to accept something like the Annan plan? Or should we get prepared to accept a good solution based on democracy and human rights? Also, how would debates make us more prepared?

I guess I am in general less optimistic than you are.

For me, "prepared" means that we should be in a position to understand and respect the concerns of the other side, during the process of negotiations - and this should go both ways. Negotiations will fail if, for instance, TCs are not interested to understand GC security concerns. Similarly, negotiations will fail if GCs are not interested to understand TC concerns of "cultural and political absorbtion by the GC majority".

It is for this reason that inter-communal dialogue, not any kind of debate, is particularly helpful in preparing the ground for a settlement.

As for being optimistic, I will confess that I am going through a pessimist phase ... I see what needs to happen, but I don't see it happening.

[Piratis]

Yes, I agree that dialogue can help us to understand each other. However do you think that one side will accept to take less not because they were forced to but because they understood they are wrong?

Even common people (not politicians) will try to find a million excuses as to why they should have something that is obviously unfair. They will try to get as much as their power will allow them to get. "Understanding" is unfortunately not very relevant for most people.