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Bi-zonal or Bi-communal defies the point of a Federation!

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Bi-zonal or Bi-communal defies the point of a Federation!

Postby Andros » Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:45 pm

I don't know about some, but, am I the only person who agrees that a federal based Cyprus problem can not be, in any form, based on a bi-zonal, or even a bi-communal Republic! I can understand if there’s a large ethnic community in a particular borough (for instance the type of situation you get in London) promoting its local MP, but actually devising a constitution based on inter-states, bi-communal or even bi-zonal areas, to me, seems absurd. How can that possibly be a "good" basis for discussion? A federation, to my understanding, refers to a country that has a diversity of people, from different cultural and ethnic background as its citizens, and NOT a country split into inter-community areas, cantons, constituent area or even dual administrations as part of a nation’s constitution?

Would that not be a form of Prejudice or racism? Why bother with a federation, or even the risk of forming a federation if we are going to be subjected to a forced solution based on what Turkey believes should be an acceptable Federal formula?
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Postby Get Real! » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:19 pm

It is both racist AND undemocratic. Any constitution based on ethnicities is doomed to dissolution as proven in the past. The RoC needs a modern democratic constitution that offers just one vote per person and relegates citizen’s ethnic backgrounds to diversity where it belongs right next to sexual preference and other similar unimportant details.
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Postby Andros » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:36 pm

Get Real!

Thank you, I couldn't have said it better myself. So, in light of this and in light of the fact that the Turkish/Turkish Cypriot duo will never accept a so-called "Federal" plan without any form of inter-state (constituent), loose confederal government scenario, what do you think we can achieve under the present geo-political climate?

In other words, I personally don't think that we will be able to achieve such a task - unless the Turks suddenly wake up with a heart of an angel! Unfortunately, and this is what I am most afraid of, that we will once again, somehow, be tricked into another referendum similar to that of April 2004 – the preparation work all appears to be too comparable!

Please don't get me wrong, but I don't think an ethnic community comprising of only 18% of the entire island's population should have "equal" footing over 82%. I am not being hasty or rude, or even racist in any way, but it just doesn't make logical sense for us to sign such a so-called "federal", “Confederal” deal even remotely similar to the failed “United Cyprus Republic”. And, why would the present workable Republic of Cyprus need to change its name to a “United Republic” – what does that actually mean? Inter-united republics, confederal republics? Federated Republic? It’s all too confusing and will result in an irreversible concoction.

Or, am I being completely out of line here?
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Postby free_cyprus » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:55 pm

Andros wrote:Get Real!

Thank you, I couldn't have said it better myself. So, in light of this and in light of the fact that the Turkish/Turkish Cypriot duo will never accept a so-called "Federal" plan without any form of inter-state (constituent), loose confederal government scenario, what do you think we can achieve under the present geo-political climate?

In other words, I personally don't think that we will be able to achieve such a task - unless the Turks suddenly wake up with a heart of an angel! Unfortunately, and this is what I am most afraid of, that we will once again, somehow, be tricked into another referendum similar to that of April 2004 – the preparation work all appears to be too comparable!

Please don't get me wrong, but I don't think an ethnic community comprising of only 18% of the entire island's population should have "equal" footing over 82%. I am not being hasty or rude, or even racist in any way, but it just doesn't make logical sense for us to sign such a so-called "federal", “Confederal” deal even remotely similar to the failed “United Cyprus Republic”. And, why would the present workable Republic of Cyprus need to change its name to a “United Republic” – what does that actually mean? Inter-united republics, confederal republics? Federated Republic? It’s all too confusing and will result in an irreversible concoction.

Or, am I being completely out of line here?


get rid of the zurich agreement,and tell turkey and greece to recognise us cypriots not greeks or turks becouse we speak their language and we are on our way to solving the cyprus problem,every single person should have the same right
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Postby Andros » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:21 am

free-cyprus,

I believe that you've hit the nail on the head with your previous statement, as that's exactly what I am ultimately saying. I also believe that the only Cyprus solution should be that in the form of a Cyprus for all, no borders, where everyone is a Cypriot-islander - citizen of the republic. I don't believe in phony Annan Style federated two-constituent state ideas, and most certainly not one that dissolves the present Republic of Cyprus.

However, it is not us whom are in control of the Cyprus issue, is it? And, while we WISH for a pure-unified Cyprus republic where everyone is truly equal, it appears that the Turkish Cypriots clearly do not.

Therefore, what I am asking is, where does it leave the Cyprus problem in terms of seeking a solution in the foreseable future? What are our realistic options in terms of a settlement?

And, what do you make of the "Removal of the isolation" state of affairs created by Turkish Cypriot leader Mehmet Talat? Will it lead to annexation with Turkey, or will it win the Turkish Cypriots some kind of recognition for the northern part of Cyprus as a Turkish state?

Unfrotunately, with the "observer" representation of northern Cyprus as the "Turkish Cypriot State" through the eyes of the OIC, the new situation with Syria and now the removal the so-called isolation, what other surprises are we yet to face by the Turkish Cypriots?

That is why I believe that we need to push for a Cyprus settlement at the earliest time possible.

Please tell me if I am wrong, or appear too concerned, or even if I am calculating the situation completely the opposite way to how you see it?

Thanks for your postings.
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Postby Get Real! » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:33 am

Andros wrote:So, in light of this and in light of the fact that the Turkish/Turkish Cypriot duo will never accept a so-called "Federal" plan without any form of inter-state (constituent), loose confederal government scenario, what do you think we can achieve under the present geo-political climate?

It doesn't look promising at the moment and although it seems that TP is right in saying that we should wait for the geopolitical scenario to change favorably with time there is always the danger of that desirable scenario never coming to pass or taking too long to arrive.

I personally prefer a more confrontational approach to solving the problem and that would involve adopting what I call the ISRAELI model! :)

This basically involves a dramatic enhancement of the National Guard in conjunction with hired professionals and then a gradual commencement of bullying tactics against Turkey… in other words the hunter becoming the hunted. This is the ONLY language Turkey understands.
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Postby Andros » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:50 am

Get Real Wrote:
I personally prefer a more confrontational approach to solving the problem and that would involve adopting what I call the ISRAELI model!

This basically involves a dramatic enhancement of the National Guard in conjunction with hired professionals and then a gradual commencement of bullying tactics against Turkey… in other words the hunter becoming the hunted. This is the ONLY language Turkey understands.



An interesting idea Get Real! One that almost all of us Greek Cypriots would like to adopt, but I have my reservations due to the following reason: Seeing that we are full EU members, representatives of the Republic of Cyprus and are known for our liberal outlook concerning the Cyprus issue, we may just corner or political advantage if we suddenly took to such tactics. I believe we are better than that. We have the EU behind us, and that, believe me means a lot. Also, such a tactic as you say may lead to the complete removal of the So-called "isolation" and give Mehmet Talat some kind of political advantage. And we clearly don't want to look like a Mr Denktash, do we?

I believe that we should stick by our guns and force perhaps a "Camp David" style instead, at least that way the Turkish Cypriot will be forced to show the world their true colour of seeking Recognition only, and not a federal formula like what they are falsely portraying.
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Postby repulsewarrior » Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:38 am

"Camp David" between a Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot leader would truly be a good diplomatic event if it could be arranged. However we need some fresh ideas, something quite unlike what was before, futuristic, because embracing it will provide for the qualities we seek as individuals in a State as a united identity in our relations with our other global partners, and as Nationalists in our internal affairs with each other.

As for our ethnic conundrum, a bicameral legislature at the federal level can be made so that these differences act as a countervailing force against a government which would impose itself in a manner hurtful to its citizens because it differentiates their identities to promote one over the other. Three slates from which every citizen has one pick allows for their representation in an Upper House by his/her Turkish Cypriot representative, and his/her Greek Cypriot representative having a President who for his/her Party has won the majority of seats in this House which has an equal number of seats for each ethnicity. A third representative sitting as an Independent would sit on Government Committees reporting to The Lower House and, having a speaker, vote by consensus, creating a culture of politics which refines its participants and prepares them for a life of civic duty. Two National Assemblies, chartered by the State and having as a jurisdiction one of the two zones, can exist to provide to its citizens the infrastructure and the services they need as communities, toward their self representation in the sustenance of their distinctive societies, having the responsibility and the respect minorities need to sustain themselves as well. Thus: three governments can make us Federal, and Bi-communal.

Geographically speaking, Bi-zonal cannot mean two parts. If the division of the island is to exist as it is today, we must still recognise the wrongs each did to each other, and the land which is the center of all this must be redistributed so that it can redress our cruelest reactions to each other, as well as preparing the island for the free association, free movement and free expression of a mobile and Modern people. Enclaves in each part will allow for the island's repopulation, without destroying the fabric of the society which surrounds it, that offers the greatest amount of choice to the affected in establishing for themselves choices which do not exist today. Bi-zonal, as in Bicycle having two wheels, does not describe their components; being made of many parts.
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Postby Nikitas » Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:51 am

Repulsewarrior,

Some time back I posted a thread asking why not a multi regional multi communal federation that would reflect the multi communal nature of Cypriot society.So there would be constitutional status for all communities of Cyprus, Greeks, Turks, Armenians, Maronites, Latins and Gypsies. If the 18 per cent can be equal to the 82 per cent then there should be no distinction made towards lower percentages of population. The thread did not get one single response!

In other instances when I mentioned this idea the general response from TC forum members was "stuff the smaller communities, they joined the Greeks". GC members were more positive.

From this experience I gather that a multi regional solution does not have much of a chance of being accepted.
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Postby Andros » Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:22 pm

repulsewarrior,

Hi, thank you for adding to my posting. And to the rest of you, please watch out for my next topic, "Turkey must choose: TRNC or ROC?

As for your latest posting, which I must say I enjoyed reading, I would only like to say the following:-

Due to the small size of the island of Cyprus, unfortunately, a federal style formula based on a complex hierarchy sub-system, encompassing different levels of ethnic representation, would undoubtedly lead to some kind of major conflict. It's because of these reasons alone as to why I strongly suggest either a "Pure" federal structure, or partition.

Regarding the "Pure" federal initiative, I would say that it should, and can only be based on the results of a democratically elected government by the "People”. of Cyprus; this unfortunately is always overlooked when politicians discuss the Cyprus problem within the framework of a settlement Although I know many Turkish Cypriot people in this forum will unquestionably lash out by implying that I am being bias or am expressing my opinion only because I am a Greek Cypriot, please believe me when I say that it's truly not the case by any means. I believe that I am genuinely expressing my logical understanding of the Cyprus problem head-on, considering the obvious and undeniable population ratio of its inhabitants. How, in logical terms, can anyone expect the clear majority of the peoples of the island to yield what's rightly be their democratic voting rights? In a federal Cyprus election for instance, it's obvious that the Greek Cypriot's voting potential (if all vote) will always out number any of the minority ethnic population by at least 4-1. Thus, how can anyone expect any Union, federal government or united republic to operate without the moral consideration of a democratically elected government voted in by the majority people? Why, in my view, can't the Turkish Cypriot people accept the reality that they are a minority of the population of Cyprus? Why is that REALITY so hard for the Turkish Cypriots to fathom?

Within this context, I believe that a federal government that tries to undemocratically apply locks to the very freedoms of the majority people of an island has no chance for success? Am I wrong?

Do you all honestly believe that the Turkish Cypriots should be allowed to force our people to yield their democratic rights as the majority peoples of the island for the sake of a new Confederal deal for unification?

I am not sure about some people on this forum, but I am seriously annoyed at the following quote used by the Turkish Cypriot administration and also by the United Nation after the 2004 Annan Plan referendum:

Kofi Annan and the Turkish Cypriot leadership said,
"Cyprus is not a question about Minority or Majority"


In essence, the Cyprus question is actually about a Minority and Majority reality that can not be denied. And, everyone knows that the 1960 treaty had many loop-holes and inconsistencies that fell short of a complete Federal structure. Therefore, I don't see why we should be forced, by diplomatic political bullying, to sign an even worst deal than the 2004 Annan Plan. On a final note, my idea, although I know the Turkish Cypriots would never accept such a democratic system, would consist of One President voted in by the people of the island, One Prime Minister elected by the majority MPs of the democratically voted, No borders, no derogations, no limits, no Greek or Turkish areas and no racist-political based policies that undermine the democratic rights of every inhabitant on the island. If this can not be, then, in my view, I would prefer partition.

It's either democratic, or nothing in my eyes!
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