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TCs - post-74 - how is it (and has it been) for you?

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TCs - post-74 - how is it (and has it been) for you?

Postby Talisker » Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:53 am

Why ask this question? Well I think it's important. If you are happy with life within the current political stalemate then the prospects for reunification of the island surely recede. Pre-74 Cyprus does not seem to have been a particularly safe place to live - killings within and between communities, living in enclaves, etc. So, post-74, presumably life got better for you - so why seek any change to the current situation?

I challenged the GCs in another thread 'Is there a coherent GC strategy to reunify Cyprus'
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=14608
and have to say that few of them engaged in answering the question (with the notable exception of Nikitas). I'm not convinced they have one.

I know the southern part of the island quite well having visited many times, but have never been to the north. So, in order to understand thinking from your side of the equation and whether there is any incentive for you to seek a change to the staus quo, I'd like to ask the TCs who have experience of life in the northern part of the island the following questions:

1. Immediately post-74 - what was the feeling? Jubilation, or trepidation?

2. How was and is 'isolation' from the international community for you? Have you been disadvantaged? Or, to the average man in the street, is life pretty comfortable, and these international pressures don't really matter?

3. How do you feel about people from Turkey settling on the island?

4. Do you resent the obvious prosperity enjoyed by the GCs, and wish a piece of that?

5. Does the thought of reunification scare you? And, if so, why? Do you think GCs are a threat to you even within the boundaries of the EU?

6. Do you feel your destiny lies in the hands of (i) yourselves, (ii) Turkey, (iii) GCs, (iv) the international community?

7. What do you want for the future?
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Postby observer » Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:53 pm

Good Question. I’ll have a go at answering, although my answer is naturally a personal view.

1. Immediately post-74 - what was the feeling? Jubilation, or trepidation?

I was not here for the events of ’74. I was finishing my education in UK. I have yet to meet anyone who felt jubilation, either at the time or since. I believe the prevailing feeling was relief mixed with sadness.

2. How was and is 'isolation' from the international community for you? Have you been disadvantaged? Or, to the average man in the street, is life pretty comfortable, and these international pressures don't really matter?

On a day to day basis a feeling of irritation when what you want is not available because of the embargo. Over the years, the situation has improved, more rapidly in the past few years. I think that this is because post RoC joining the EU, the world has had to look at both sides of the divide and take into account TC views; before it was a case of listening to the GC view of history and not paying Cyprus much attention. The Anan Plan referendum also made the world pay attention and brought home the fact that there would either be stalemate or a negotiated solution, making TRNC a little safer to invest in.

3. How do you feel about people from Turkey settling on the island?

At one time it was only necessary to have an ID card in order to come from Turkey and stay. This brought a lot of people (I dispute that they were sent) who were at the lower end of the socio-economic scale, and did cause problems. About 3 years ago proper immigration rules were introduced, and Turkish mainlanders now need a residence permit or a work permit, just like everyone else. Several thousand Turks returned to the mainland when the new regulations were imposed. It would have been better if these rules had been introduced earlier, but having been dispossessed myself, I don’t wish to impose it on others. Those who made it early should stay – there are not nearly as many as GCs would have you believe. And the other piece of misinformation is that the Turkish immigrants are changing the TC culture. Of course there are changes, but not nearly as many as I observe in the South where money has changed the Cyprus that I remember from boyhood to something very different. In TRNC it is still possible to see more of the Cyprus I remember from pre1974.

4. Do you resent the obvious prosperity enjoyed by the GCs, and wish a piece of that?

Resent is too strong a word. A little bit of envy and ‘what might have been’ is impossible to avoid. But I believe that even without the events of 1974, TCs would not be sharing in the prosperity of a GC run Cyprus.

5. Does the thought of reunification scare you? And, if so, why? Do you think GCs are a threat to you even within the boundaries of the EU?

A short answer ‘YES’. It’s not that I fear bombs or bullets. There may be isolated incidents from extremists, but I think that the GCs are not going to go down this road again. The incidents since the gates opened are minor, and few and far between. What I fear is economic deprivation. GC political and economic life is verging on the corrupt with friends, relatives and political colleagues getting the cream of any business. Being TCs, only skimmed milk would be left over in a GC run government. I am not saying that TCs are a great deal better, but at least it is possible to get some of the cream from your own kind. I know that there are EU rules against discrimination, but Cyprus is largely a world of small, family businesses, and why someone else got the delivery contract, or the repair contract is difficult to prove or disprove.

6. Do you feel your destiny lies in the hands of (i) yourselves, (ii) Turkey, (iii) GCs, (iv) the international community?

All 4.

7. What do you want for the future?

I would like there to be two equal functioning zones. Few TCs want to return to their former homes – those that do have presumably gone. I suspect that only a relatively small number of GCs would want to return. Varosha is an exception.

I have suggested in another thread somewhere that a possible solution is to grant the TRNC independence under some form of EU mandate, until such time as its laws and institutions are integrated with the EU. The advantages are:
1. GCs can move back if it is practical and they want to. If not they can receive compensation. They will be able to vote in local and EU elections, but not in TRNC national elections, in common with the rules in all EU countries. The same would apply in the reverse direction to TCs.
2. The Turkish Army becomes of no concern to the GC government, it becomes a national matter for the TRNC. In reality I expect, most, if not all, of the Turkish Army to return to the mainland.
3. Existing Turkish immigrants cease to be of concern to the GC government. They become either TRNC citizens or nationals of a foreign country resident in the TRNC.
4. Within the boundaries of the EU, illegal immigration to both sides becomes a common problem. As does policing and all the other activities between normal states.
5. I believe that TCs would accept boundary changes if the above were possible. An indication of the willingness to accept this was shown in the referendum.

I think that few TCs want a full partition, an iron curtain across the island. Also, I don’t think that you would get many to vote for integration with Turkey.

Next time you are in Cyprus, come through to the North and form your own opinion. It's quite simple to cross the Green Line now. You will find that we are not nearly as rabid as we are painted.
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Postby Talisker » Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:00 am

Observer, you are well named. Thank you for your considered response to my numerous questions. I learnt a lot from your answers. I had a couple more points I'd like to raise from some of the comments you made. Hope you don't mind if I select these rather than going through everything again which will make this a tediously long post.

observer wrote:Good Question. I’ll have a go at answering, although my answer is naturally a personal view.

Really good to get a 'personal view', much better than hearing the same old rhetoric which suits either side of the political divide. I appreciate you revealing your observations and experiences.

observer wrote:2. How was and is 'isolation' from the international community for you? Have you been disadvantaged? Or, to the average man in the street, is life pretty comfortable, and these international pressures don't really matter?

On a day to day basis a feeling of irritation when what you want is not available because of the embargo. Over the years, the situation has improved, more rapidly in the past few years. I think that this is because post RoC joining the EU, the world has had to look at both sides of the divide and take into account TC views; before it was a case of listening to the GC view of history and not paying Cyprus much attention. The Anan Plan referendum also made the world pay attention and brought home the fact that there would either be stalemate or a negotiated solution, making TRNC a little safer to invest in.

So is there a lot of foreign investment in the north now? And if the situation is changing rapidly does this mean there is less requirement for negotiation to bring about a political settlement?

observer wrote:3. How do you feel about people from Turkey settling on the island?

At one time it was only necessary to have an ID card in order to come from Turkey and stay. This brought a lot of people (I dispute that they were sent) who were at the lower end of the socio-economic scale, and did cause problems. About 3 years ago proper immigration rules were introduced, and Turkish mainlanders now need a residence permit or a work permit, just like everyone else. Several thousand Turks returned to the mainland when the new regulations were imposed. It would have been better if these rules had been introduced earlier, but having been dispossessed myself, I don’t wish to impose it on others. Those who made it early should stay – there are not nearly as many as GCs would have you believe. And the other piece of misinformation is that the Turkish immigrants are changing the TC culture. Of course there are changes, but not nearly as many as I observe in the South where money has changed the Cyprus that I remember from boyhood to something very different. In TRNC it is still possible to see more of the Cyprus I remember from pre1974.

Interesting to read your take on the history and more recent controls on Turkish mainlanders settling in Cyprus. I found some more information within a report entitled 'Beyond Numbers: An Inquiry into the Political Integration of the Turkish 'Settlers' in Northern Cyprus' commissioned by the International Peace Institute, Oslo in 2005. (Maybe this has already been discussed on the forum?).
http://www.prio.no/files/manual-import/ ... educed.pdf

It is a long report, but the summary indicates 'the electoral lists examined for this report indicate that voters originating from mainland Turkey constitute no more than 20–25% of the total electorate in northern Cyprus' which gives some idea of the numbers and influence of these 'settlers' which I hadn't known before.

observer wrote:5. Does the thought of reunification scare you? And, if so, why? Do you think GCs are a threat to you even within the boundaries of the EU?

A short answer ‘YES’. It’s not that I fear bombs or bullets. There may be isolated incidents from extremists, but I think that the GCs are not going to go down this road again. The incidents since the gates opened are minor, and few and far between. What I fear is economic deprivation. GC political and economic life is verging on the corrupt with friends, relatives and political colleagues getting the cream of any business. Being TCs, only skimmed milk would be left over in a GC run government. I am not saying that TCs are a great deal better, but at least it is possible to get some of the cream from your own kind. I know that there are EU rules against discrimination, but Cyprus is largely a world of small, family businesses, and why someone else got the delivery contract, or the repair contract is difficult to prove or disprove.

This is an interesting angle to consider - you fear an economic apartheid should there be a political settlement and lifting of the embargoes?

observer wrote:7. What do you want for the future?

I would like there to be two equal functioning zones.

I'm presuming you are in favour of the BBF situation that Nikitas has been talking me through on another thread. I've been thinking about this suggested solution, and initially didn't think it seemed workable, but I'm starting to see some sense in it. Perversely enough, my reasoning is based on the political situation in the UK which is going in exactly the opposite direction, namely the devolution of government to Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland. It is really looking now as though the devolved government in Scotland at least, could lead to full independence, if not in 10 years time, then certainly within the next 25-50 years. Scotland would be a fully fledged independent state within the EU. So there we have a situation of political integration devolving due to the wishes of the people. If the BBF worked in Cyprus, although there would be two 'governments' to begin with, there would be more and more integration of the communities, both communities are going to become wealthy (always impressed with the standard of living in the part of Cyprus I visit), and that prosperity may be more beguiling than political or cultural disharmony and eventually lead to a single government. Or is that naive? I am no political animal, just putting forward a simple prediction as to what might happen.

observer wrote:I have suggested in another thread somewhere that a possible solution is to grant the TRNC independence under some form of EU mandate, until such time as its laws and institutions are integrated with the EU. The advantages are:
1. GCs can move back if it is practical and they want to. If not they can receive compensation. They will be able to vote in local and EU elections, but not in TRNC national elections, in common with the rules in all EU countries. The same would apply in the reverse direction to TCs.
2. The Turkish Army becomes of no concern to the GC government, it becomes a national matter for the TRNC. In reality I expect, most, if not all, of the Turkish Army to return to the mainland.
3. Existing Turkish immigrants cease to be of concern to the GC government. They become either TRNC citizens or nationals of a foreign country resident in the TRNC.
4. Within the boundaries of the EU, illegal immigration to both sides becomes a common problem. As does policing and all the other activities between normal states.
5. I believe that TCs would accept boundary changes if the above were possible. An indication of the willingness to accept this was shown in the referendum.

I think the sticking point will be 'grant the TRNC independence', even though you qualify this by putting it under a EU mandate. I'm sure that to GCs the presence of the Turkish army is unacceptable, as I understand it this was one of the main reasons for rejection of the Annan proposal.

observer wrote:I think that few TCs want a full partition, an iron curtain across the island. Also, I don’t think that you would get many to vote for integration with Turkey.

Those are both reassuring and positive statements.

observer wrote:Next time you are in Cyprus, come through to the North and form your own opinion. It's quite simple to cross the Green Line now. You will find that we are not nearly as rabid as we are painted.

Thanks, I'd like to visit some time.
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Postby observer » Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:49 am

I had a couple more points I'd like to raise from some of the comments you made. Hope you don't mind if I select these rather than going through everything again which will make this a tediously long post.

A. I don’t mind at all. I find all these little boxes within boxes confusing and tend to skip over them anyway.

Q. So is there a lot of foreign investment in the north now? And if the situation is changing rapidly does this mean there is less requirement for negotiation to bring about a political settlement?

A. It would be wrong to exaggerate the amount of overseas investment in TRNC, but as the starting point was virtually nil, the amount now coming in is significant in local terms. Much of it is going into construction, including the building of new hotels and upgrading of old hotels and facilities. From these sources money trickles out to furniture suppliers, sellers of white goods and the like, into the pockets of employees, and then to retailers.
Often, who is doing the initial investing is unclear. Opponents of the TRNC will immediatly point to money laundering and Turkish gangsters. That some comes from these sources is probably true, although a friend in the banking industry tells me that the amount of money laundered through TRNC is quite small compared with most countries since we are not on the international electronic banking circuit (swift-something). I think that more comes from businessmen who would prefer to be discrete about their dealings in TRNC so that their businesses elsewhere are not affected by the anti-TRNC lobby. There are said to be a number of Greek and GC investors working through front men, although this is impossible to prove – at least for an ordinary citizen.
I don’t think that the improvement in the standard of living lessens the feeling that there should be a political settlement. I don’t even think that the improvement in the standard of living makes it more difficult. What does make it more difficult is the fact that formerly empty land now has houses, shops etc. built on it.

Q. Interesting to read your take on the history and more recent controls on Turkish mainlanders settling in Cyprus. I found some more information within a report entitled 'Beyond Numbers: An Inquiry into the Political Integration of the Turkish 'Settlers' in Northern Cyprus' commissioned by the International Peace Institute, Oslo in 2005. (Maybe this has already been discussed on the forum?).
http://www.prio.no/files/manual-import/ ... educed.pdf

It is a long report, but the summary indicates 'the electoral lists examined for this report indicate that voters originating from mainland Turkey constitute no more than 20–25% of the total electorate in northern Cyprus' which gives some idea of the numbers and influence of these 'settlers' which I hadn't known before.

A. I shall read the report with interest. The numbers you indicate are prety well what I would think, and if you take into account that a certain amount of the 20-25% are in Northern Cyprus because of marriage or retirement (it is interesting that both British and Turkish soldiers who have worked in Cyprus seem to like retiring here) the number of Turkish economic immigrants (settlers) is significant, but nowhere near the ridiculous numbers quoted by the GC government. Simple observation shows those numbers to be untrue.

Q. This is an interesting angle to consider - you fear an economic apartheid should there be a political settlement and lifting of the embargoes?

A. It has happened in the past, is happening now, and I see no indication that it won’t happen in the future.

Q. I'm presuming you are in favour of the BBF situation that Nikitas has been talking me through on another thread. I've been thinking about this suggested solution, and initially didn't think it seemed workable, but I'm starting to see some sense in it. Perversely enough, my reasoning is based on the political situation in the UK which is going in exactly the opposite direction, namely the devolution of government to Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland. It is really looking now as though the devolved government in Scotland at least, could lead to full independence, if not in 10 years time, then certainly within the next 25-50 years. Scotland would be a fully fledged independent state within the EU. So there we have a situation of political integration devolving due to the wishes of the people. If the BBF worked in Cyprus, although there would be two 'governments' to begin with, there would be more and more integration of the communities, both communities are going to become wealthy (always impressed with the standard of living in the part of Cyprus I visit), and that prosperity may be more beguiling than political or cultural disharmony and eventually lead to a single government. Or is that naive? I am no political animal, just putting forward a simple prediction as to what might happen.

A. I agree, up to a point. Just as there has never been full integration in UK (Scotland and Northern Ireland have always had their own legal systems that operate differently in some ways), in the same way I see no need for full integration in Cyprus. I do think that there are mutual benefits in cooperating in some areas. Once the process gets underway, it will probably find its own level in time.
As an aside, should Nikitas be reading this, I enjoy reading your posts, finding them logical and well argued, even if I do not always find myself in agreement with you.

Q. (TRNC Independence under EU mandate) I think the sticking point will be 'grant the TRNC independence', even though you qualify this by putting it under a EU mandate. I'm sure that to GCs the presence of the Turkish army is unacceptable, as I understand it this was one of the main reasons for rejection of the Annan proposal.

A. I think that you are right, but what I had in mind was a situation leading to something like that in the island of Ireland, where joint membership of the EU, the commonality of so many laws and regulations, and the obvious benefits of cooperation rather than opposition, did much to end the violence there.
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Postby Talisker » Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:16 am

observer wrote:I had a couple more points I'd like to raise from some of the comments you made. Hope you don't mind if I select these rather than going through everything again which will make this a tediously long post.

A. I don’t mind at all. I find all these little boxes within boxes confusing and tend to skip over them anyway.

Q. So is there a lot of foreign investment in the north now? And if the situation is changing rapidly does this mean there is less requirement for negotiation to bring about a political settlement?

A. It would be wrong to exaggerate the amount of overseas investment in TRNC, but as the starting point was virtually nil, the amount now coming in is significant in local terms. Much of it is going into construction, including the building of new hotels and upgrading of old hotels and facilities. From these sources money trickles out to furniture suppliers, sellers of white goods and the like, into the pockets of employees, and then to retailers.
Often, who is doing the initial investing is unclear. Opponents of the TRNC will immediatly point to money laundering and Turkish gangsters. That some comes from these sources is probably true, although a friend in the banking industry tells me that the amount of money laundered through TRNC is quite small compared with most countries since we are not on the international electronic banking circuit (swift-something). I think that more comes from businessmen who would prefer to be discrete about their dealings in TRNC so that their businesses elsewhere are not affected by the anti-TRNC lobby. There are said to be a number of Greek and GC investors working through front men, although this is impossible to prove – at least for an ordinary citizen.
I don’t think that the improvement in the standard of living lessens the feeling that there should be a political settlement. I don’t even think that the improvement in the standard of living makes it more difficult. What does make it more difficult is the fact that formerly empty land now has houses, shops etc. built on it.

Q. Interesting to read your take on the history and more recent controls on Turkish mainlanders settling in Cyprus. I found some more information within a report entitled 'Beyond Numbers: An Inquiry into the Political Integration of the Turkish 'Settlers' in Northern Cyprus' commissioned by the International Peace Institute, Oslo in 2005. (Maybe this has already been discussed on the forum?).
http://www.prio.no/files/manual-import/ ... educed.pdf

It is a long report, but the summary indicates 'the electoral lists examined for this report indicate that voters originating from mainland Turkey constitute no more than 20–25% of the total electorate in northern Cyprus' which gives some idea of the numbers and influence of these 'settlers' which I hadn't known before.

A. I shall read the report with interest. The numbers you indicate are prety well what I would think, and if you take into account that a certain amount of the 20-25% are in Northern Cyprus because of marriage or retirement (it is interesting that both British and Turkish soldiers who have worked in Cyprus seem to like retiring here) the number of Turkish economic immigrants (settlers) is significant, but nowhere near the ridiculous numbers quoted by the GC government. Simple observation shows those numbers to be untrue.

Q. This is an interesting angle to consider - you fear an economic apartheid should there be a political settlement and lifting of the embargoes?

A. It has happened in the past, is happening now, and I see no indication that it won’t happen in the future.

Q. I'm presuming you are in favour of the BBF situation that Nikitas has been talking me through on another thread. I've been thinking about this suggested solution, and initially didn't think it seemed workable, but I'm starting to see some sense in it. Perversely enough, my reasoning is based on the political situation in the UK which is going in exactly the opposite direction, namely the devolution of government to Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland. It is really looking now as though the devolved government in Scotland at least, could lead to full independence, if not in 10 years time, then certainly within the next 25-50 years. Scotland would be a fully fledged independent state within the EU. So there we have a situation of political integration devolving due to the wishes of the people. If the BBF worked in Cyprus, although there would be two 'governments' to begin with, there would be more and more integration of the communities, both communities are going to become wealthy (always impressed with the standard of living in the part of Cyprus I visit), and that prosperity may be more beguiling than political or cultural disharmony and eventually lead to a single government. Or is that naive? I am no political animal, just putting forward a simple prediction as to what might happen.

A. I agree, up to a point. Just as there has never been full integration in UK (Scotland and Northern Ireland have always had their own legal systems that operate differently in some ways), in the same way I see no need for full integration in Cyprus. I do think that there are mutual benefits in cooperating in some areas. Once the process gets underway, it will probably find its own level in time.
As an aside, should Nikitas be reading this, I enjoy reading your posts, finding them logical and well argued, even if I do not always find myself in agreement with you.

Q. (TRNC Independence under EU mandate) I think the sticking point will be 'grant the TRNC independence', even though you qualify this by putting it under a EU mandate. I'm sure that to GCs the presence of the Turkish army is unacceptable, as I understand it this was one of the main reasons for rejection of the Annan proposal.

A. I think that you are right, but what I had in mind was a situation leading to something like that in the island of Ireland, where joint membership of the EU, the commonality of so many laws and regulations, and the obvious benefits of cooperation rather than opposition, did much to end the violence there.

Thanks Observer, you've given me some very clear answers. I'll think about what you've told me, do some more reading of my own, and possibly get back with some more questions after that if you don't mind.
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Postby observer » Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:34 am

No problems.

I have now read through the document by the International Peace Institute that you pointed me to. It falls very much in line with my previous feeling of Turkish immigration to Northern Cyprus, although I could not have had the detailed statistics to back it up.
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Postby Muzzy70 » Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:40 pm

This is a really interesting topic and I'm pleased to see that it has not yet been hijacked by the more neanderthal GC elements that frequent this site.

Talisker, I have to say that I agree with nearly everything that's been noted by Observer. I was only 4 years of age when Turkey intervened in 1974 and my dad tells me that he cried with tears of joy at the event as did other TC's. Liberation certainly, from what were considered to be years of oppression. (Please read Harry Scott Gibbons - 'The Genocide Files')

Not sure about Observer's EU mandate claim. I am convinced that were the up-coming round of talks to fail that there will be a referendum in the TRNC concerning a demand for recognition or union with Turkey. I have it on very good authority that this will take place. It is inevitable that the TRNC will go the way of Kosovo in such an eventuality.

You must visit the north. We are as Cypriot as the Greek community (even though they cannot bear to say it) and we are most certainly not demons !
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Postby Piratis » Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:52 pm

Muzzy70 wrote:This is a really interesting topic and I'm pleased to see that it has not yet been hijacked by the more neanderthal GC elements that frequent this site.

Talisker, I have to say that I agree with nearly everything that's been noted by Observer. I was only 4 years of age when Turkey intervened in 1974 and my dad tells me that he cried with tears of joy at the event as did other TC's. Liberation certainly, from what were considered to be years of oppression. (Please read Harry Scott Gibbons - 'The Genocide Files')


But unfortunately it was hijacked by a TC extremist like you, who has been brainwashed from his family and all you can do is repeat the Turkish propaganda and lies.

So lets set some points clear:

1) Cypriots (Greek or any other) never had any indention to oppress or harm any Turk. On the contrary it is the Turks that kept invading our island with exactly that intention, and Cypriots have suffered greatly from this (and continue to suffer). In the wars and conflicts which the Turks started against the Cypriot people with the aim to stop Cypriots from having their freedom and self-determination some Turks suffered as well. But you can not blame the GCs because you also suffered in the conflicts which you started! In those conflicts the GCs suffered as well, but most importantly the GCs suffered many magnitudes more from the Turkish aggression in general, somehting that your very selective memory keeps forgetting.

2) The "investment" in recent years in the occupied areas comes mainly from (a) the illegal sale of Greek Cypriot properties and (b) from Greek Cypriots and foreigners who visit the occupied areas as tourists by crossing the gates from the free to the occupied areas.

3) The Prio report that Talisker gave was written by a TC. If you want an independent report about the amount of Settlers in the occupied areas you can look at the report of the Council of Europe:
http://assembly.coe.int/Documents/Worki ... OC9799.htm

4) The "trnc" is nothing more than a fake illegal state created by means of ehtnic cleansing. Talking about "independence for trnc" is like saying that I can grab your arm, name it "my-arm" and then demand to cut it off from you and make it "independent".

"trnc" is no Scotland. Scotland was not created by ethnically cleansing the English from that part of land and replacing them with foreigners. The 80% of people that have north Cyprus as their homeland are Greek Cypriots (just like the rest of the island), and this has been the case for many 1000s years. If a part of the UK has 80% English as its native population, I don't think that part would be called "Scotland" would it?

The TCs are a minority, like the many other minorities that the Ottomans and the other colonialists left behind when their empires were desolved. If you say that the Turks in Cyprus now have the right to grab a part of our island, ethnically cleanse the majority of the population from it, and declare it a "Turkish Republic" then the Turks in Greece, Bulgaria etc would have the same "right" as well, and also the "whites" in South African, Asian and Latin American countries!!

We are not going to give up our lands to any invader. The Turkish minority on this island can have its human, democratic, and minority rights like every other minority in the world. But they can not demand to take part of our island just for themselves, or to undemocratically impose on Cypriots their will. Unfortunately this is what they do, and this is how the conflicts start, and then they blame us for it...
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Postby Oracle » Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:27 pm

Muzzy70 wrote: .... and we are most certainly not demons !


If you are now feeling so human, perhaps you could tackle these questions of Talisker's ....

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=18945
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Postby Talisker » Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:03 am

Piratis, I have no problem with anything that you have written but I do think you have misunderstood my reference to the changing political situation within the UK, with increased political and economic devolution to the Celtic nations.
Piratis wrote:"trnc" is no Scotland. Scotland was not created by ethnically cleansing the English from that part of land and replacing them with foreigners. The 80% of people that have north Cyprus as their homeland are Greek Cypriots (just like the rest of the island), and this has been the case for many 1000s years. If a part of the UK has 80% English as its native population, I don't think that part would be called "Scotland" would it?

I wrote 'my reasoning is based on the political situation in the UK which is going in exactly the opposite direction (to a BBF in Cyprus), namely the devolution of government to Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland'. I was attempting to make the point that a BBF may be a stepping stone to a unified Cypriot governmental system, as opposed to the current situation, whereas in the UK the signs are that power is devolving away from it's historically centralised London base.

In no way was I indicating similarities between Scotland and the TRNC - I was comparing differences in power shifts and systems as I see them in the the UK and what might happen in Cyprus.
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Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:41 pm
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