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Office of the President of the new Republic of Cyprus

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

What Percentage for each community?

European Union Principals
4
40%
Other to be negotiated
6
60%
 
Total votes : 10

Postby YFred » Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:56 pm

Get Real! wrote:
YFred wrote:Therein lies the Cyprus problem. Its both. Rescued just before being surrounded, and about to be killed. There were UN soldiers as witnesses.

You poor little clown... the Ayios Sozomenos incidents happened in early Feb 1964 and therefore no UN presence was on Cyprus until some months later! Why do you lie?

You can only live in denial for so long. Don’t just go by what you learn at school.

I go by what I learn from CREDIBLE SOURCES whereas you go by what your peasant community tells you in the form of junk sites.

Do some research and find out what actually took place at the local level. Village by village family by family. You will not have to do that many, you will see a pattern develop very quickly. I am not saying just Greeks did this. However in those villages it was GCs that ethnically cleansed TC’s.

Ethnically cleansed eh? If anything it is YOU who needs to research so don't play the smart arse with me!

Just came across a website of western newspaper cutting of the time. Its worthwhile having a look at!
http://www.tcn-cy.freeuk.com/Special2.htm

You're making a complete fool of yourself suggesting people read from such garbage sites. This is a TIME Magazine article written by a foreign journalist at the time that tells the real story which I'm sure you won't like...

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 34,00.html


Please note that my comment was to try to explain why Oracles constant attack about TC’s going to their ethnically cleansed lands was not a fair one. Ethnic cleansing was done by both sides, how much and by whom depends on which period. I don’t claim to be a historian. I see you don’t dispute that Aysozomeno TC community was surrounded and about to be cleansed by murder. Men women and children. I may be mistaken as to who the witness were, but liar, don’t think so.

It seems to me that just because some TC’s joined the British polices and hanged convicted EOKA members, that gave you the right to wipe out the TC’s from Cyprus.

Isn’t that strange, have I seen that somewhere more recently. Try looking at Israel and its activities.

Luckily you are in the minority even in the south.

We will have peace despite the presence of people like you, and this time you will not be allowed to wreck it. Fancy that.
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Postby YFred » Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:04 pm

Piratis wrote:So you admit that you supported the Colonial power to fight against the revolution of the native Cypriot people. Enough said.

There is no legitimacy in the rule of Colonial powers Zan. It is time for you and the rest of Turks to come out of the Middle Ages.

Viewpoint, union with Greece was a legitimate option. The UN resolution for decolonization clearly defines "integration into an independent State" as one of the "three legitimate options" for the people being decolonized to democratically choose from.
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

Union with Greece did not mean a "death warrant" for the TC minority and this is just your lame excuses with imaginary scenarios. Rhodes which also has a Turkish minority joined Greece a few years earlier (1947) and nothing happened to the Turkish minority there. Also since the wars between Greece and Turkey ended, the Turks in Greece not only didn't die, but their numbers have been steadily increasing, something which is in contrast to the massive decline of the Greek populations in Turkey.

So your excuse not only is imaginary, but it doesn't stand logically either.

The historical fact in this case (and your imaginary scenarios do not constitute a historical fact) is that as you admitted the TCs collaborated with the British and the Turks and attacked the Greek Cypriots. And this is exactly what I said.


I wonder how much research has been done about the treatment of the Turkish community in Rhodes, Crete and Greece. Are they happy with their lot and do they have same rights as Greeks?

Or are they also being suffocated with love?
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Postby Get Real! » Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:05 pm

YFred wrote:It seems to me that just because some TC’s joined the British polices and hanged convicted EOKA members, that gave you the right to wipe out the TC’s from Cyprus.

Some? You mean some 2,500? :lol: What gave your so-called "TC police" the right to kill EOKA members... the colonizer by any chance?

Isn’t that strange, have I seen that somewhere more recently. Try looking at Israel and its activities.

Rubbish!

Luckily you are in the minority even in the south.

We will have peace despite the presence of people like you, and this time you will not be allowed to wreck it. Fancy that.

Get out of the CyProb you silly fool!

Oracle hit the nail on the head when she called you a Y-front... :lol:
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Postby YFred » Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:12 pm

YFred wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
YFred wrote:Therein lies the Cyprus problem. Its both. Rescued just before being surrounded, and about to be killed. There were UN soldiers as witnesses.

You poor little clown... the Ayios Sozomenos incidents happened in early Feb 1964 and therefore no UN presence was on Cyprus until some months later! Why do you lie?

You can only live in denial for so long. Don’t just go by what you learn at school.

I go by what I learn from CREDIBLE SOURCES whereas you go by what your peasant community tells you in the form of junk sites.

Do some research and find out what actually took place at the local level. Village by village family by family. You will not have to do that many, you will see a pattern develop very quickly. I am not saying just Greeks did this. However in those villages it was GCs that ethnically cleansed TC’s.

Ethnically cleansed eh? If anything it is YOU who needs to research so don't play the smart arse with me!

Just came across a website of western newspaper cutting of the time. Its worthwhile having a look at!
http://www.tcn-cy.freeuk.com/Special2.htm

You're making a complete fool of yourself suggesting people read from such garbage sites. This is a TIME Magazine article written by a foreign journalist at the time that tells the real story which I'm sure you won't like...

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 34,00.html


Please note that my comment was to try to explain why Oracles constant attack about TC’s going to their ethnically cleansed lands was not a fair one. Ethnic cleansing was done by both sides, how much and by whom depends on which period. I don’t claim to be a historian. I see you don’t dispute that Aysozomeno TC community was surrounded and about to be cleansed by murder. Men women and children. I may be mistaken as to who the witness were, but liar, don’t think so.

Just read that article, considering my information was word of mouth from one of the 50 Lurucadies about 25 years ago. I don't consider that to be too inaccurate. So it was British soldiers instead. Goodness me. Waht a terrible lie. I must now keep quite for the rest of my life. you wish.

It seems to me that just because some TC’s joined the British polices and hanged convicted EOKA members, that gave you the right to wipe out the TC’s from Cyprus.

Isn’t that strange, have I seen that somewhere more recently. Try looking at Israel and its activities.

Luckily you are in the minority even in the south.

We will have peace despite the presence of people like you, and this time you will not be allowed to wreck it. Fancy that.
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Postby YFred » Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:15 pm

Get Real! wrote:
YFred wrote:It seems to me that just because some TC’s joined the British polices and hanged convicted EOKA members, that gave you the right to wipe out the TC’s from Cyprus.

Some? You mean some 2,500? :lol: What gave your so-called "TC police" the right to kill EOKA members... the colonizer by any chance?

Isn’t that strange, have I seen that somewhere more recently. Try looking at Israel and its activities.

Rubbish!

Luckily you are in the minority even in the south.

We will have peace despite the presence of people like you, and this time you will not be allowed to wreck it. Fancy that.

Get out of the CyProb you silly fool!

Oracle hit the nail on the head when she called you a Y-front... :lol:


It takes one to know one my Hellenic friend.

Have you voted yet?
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Postby Get Real! » Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:21 pm

YFred wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
YFred wrote:It seems to me that just because some TC’s joined the British polices and hanged convicted EOKA members, that gave you the right to wipe out the TC’s from Cyprus.

Some? You mean some 2,500? :lol: What gave your so-called "TC police" the right to kill EOKA members... the colonizer by any chance?

Isn’t that strange, have I seen that somewhere more recently. Try looking at Israel and its activities.

Rubbish!

Luckily you are in the minority even in the south.

We will have peace despite the presence of people like you, and this time you will not be allowed to wreck it. Fancy that.

Get out of the CyProb you silly fool!

Oracle hit the nail on the head when she called you a Y-front... :lol:


It takes one to know one my Hellenic friend.

Have you voted yet?

Hellenic? Go tell that to your linobambakos granny who had a boyfriend from each side! Image
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Postby Viewpoint » Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:29 pm

YFred wrote:
Piratis wrote:So you admit that you supported the Colonial power to fight against the revolution of the native Cypriot people. Enough said.

There is no legitimacy in the rule of Colonial powers Zan. It is time for you and the rest of Turks to come out of the Middle Ages.

Viewpoint, union with Greece was a legitimate option. The UN resolution for decolonization clearly defines "integration into an independent State" as one of the "three legitimate options" for the people being decolonized to democratically choose from.
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

Union with Greece did not mean a "death warrant" for the TC minority and this is just your lame excuses with imaginary scenarios. Rhodes which also has a Turkish minority joined Greece a few years earlier (1947) and nothing happened to the Turkish minority there. Also since the wars between Greece and Turkey ended, the Turks in Greece not only didn't die, but their numbers have been steadily increasing, something which is in contrast to the massive decline of the Greek populations in Turkey.

So your excuse not only is imaginary, but it doesn't stand logically either.

The historical fact in this case (and your imaginary scenarios do not constitute a historical fact) is that as you admitted the TCs collaborated with the British and the Turks and attacked the Greek Cypriots. And this is exactly what I said.


I wonder how much research has been done about the treatment of the Turkish community in Rhodes, Crete and Greece. Are they happy with their lot and do they have same rights as Greeks?

Or are they also being suffocated with love?


Everywhere, as though at a preconcerted signal, the peasantry rose, and massacred all the Turks—men, women and children—on whom they could lay hands. In the Morea shall no Turk be left. Nor in the whole wide world. Thus rang the song which, from mouth to mouth, announced the beginning of a war of extermination… Within three weeks of the outbreak of the revolt, not a Moslem was left, save those who had succeeded in escaping into the towns.

According to another historian of the Greek revolt, William St. Clair, upwards of twenty thousand Turkish men, women and children were killed by their Greek neighbors in a few weeks of slaughter.William St. Clair also argued that: “with the beginning of the revolt, the bishops and priests exhorted their parishioners to exterminate infidel Moslems.” St. Clair wrote:

The Turks of Greece left few traces. They disappeared suddenly and finally in the spring of 1821 unmourned and unnoticed by the rest of the world….It was hard to believe then that Greece once contained a large population of Turkish descent, living in small communities all over the country, prosperous farmers, merchants, and officials, whose families had known no other home for hundreds of years…They were killed deliberately, without qualm or scruple, and there was no regrets either then or later.

Atrocities toward the Turkish civilian population inhabiting the Peloponnese had started in the Achaia on the 28th of March, just with the beginning of the Greek revolt. On the 2nd of April, the outbreak became general over the whole of Peloponnese and on that day many Turks were murdered in different places. On the third of April 1821, the Turks of Kalavryta surrendered upon promises of security which were afterwards violated. Followingly, massacres ensued against the Turkish civilians in the towns of Peloponnese that the Greek revolutionnaries had captured.

The Turks in Monemvasia, weakened by the famine opened the gates of the city, and laid down their weapons. Six hundred of them had already gone on board the brigs, when the Mainotes burst into the town and started murdering all those who had not yet reached to the shore or those who had chosen to stay in the town. Those on the ships meanwhile were stripped of their clothes, beaten and left on a desolate rock in the Aegean, instead of being deported to Asia Minor as promised. Only a few of them were saved by a French merchant, called M. Bonfort.

A general massacre ensued the fall of Navarino on August 19, 1821. See Navarino Massacre.

The worst Greek atrocity in terms of the numbers of victims involved was the massacre following the Fall of Tripolitsa in 1822. Up to 30,000 Turks had been killed in Tripolitsa:

For three days the miserable inhabitants were given over to lust and cruelty of a mob of savages. Neither sex nor age was spared. Women and children were tortured before being put to death. So great was the slaughter that Kolokotronis himself says that, from the gate to the citadel his horse’s hoofs never touched the ground. His path of triumph was carpeted with corpses. At the end of two days, the wretched remnant of the Mussulmans were deliberately collected, to the number of some two thousand souls, of every age and sex, but principally women and children, were led out to a ravine in the neighboring mountains and there butchered like cattle.

Although the total estimates of the casualties vary, the Turkish, Moslem Albanian and Jewish population of the Peloponnese had ceased to exist as a settled community. Some estimates of the Turkish and Muslim Albanian civilian deaths by the rebels range from 15,000 out of 40,000 Muslim residents to 30,000 only in Tripolitsa. According to historians W.Alison Phillips, George Finlay, William St. Clair and Barbara Jelavich, massacres of Turkish civilians started simultaneously with the outbreak of the revolt,while Harris J. Booras and David Brewer wrote that the massacres followed the brutal hanging of Ecumenical Patriarch Gregory V of Constantinople.

Historian George Finlay claimed that the extermination of the Muslims in the rural districts was the result of a premeditated design and it proceeded more from the suggestions of men of letters, than form the revengeful feelings of the people.[18] William St. Clair wrote that: “The orgy of genocide exhausted itself in the Peloponnese only when there were no more Turks to kill.”

Central Greece

In Athens, 1,150 Turks, of whom only 180 were capable of bearing arms, surrendered upon promises of security. Alison Phillips noted that: A scene of horror followed which has only too many parallels during the course of this horrible war.

Vrachroi, modern day Agrinio, was an important town in West-Central Greece. It contained, besides the Christian population, some five hundred Mussulman families and about two hundred Jews. The massacres in Vrachori commenced with the Jews and soon Mussulmans shared the same fate.

Aegean Islands

There were also massacres towards the Muslim inhabitants of the islands in the Aegean Sea, in the early years of the Greek revolt. According to historian William St. clair, one of the aims of the Greek revolutionaries was to embroil as many Greek communities as possible in their struggle. Their technique was “to engineer some atrocity against the local Turkish population”,[23] so that these different Greek communities would have to ally themselves with the revolutionaries fearing a retaliation from the Ottomans.[23] In such a case, in March 1821, Greeks from the Samos island had landed in the Island Chios and attacked the Muslim population living in that island.[23]

Another similar massacre took place in the island Hydra, one of the most important Aegean islands. Besides the atrocities committed against the local Muslims in the island, two hybrid brigs captured a Turkish ship laden with a valuable cargo, and carrying a number of passengers. Among these was a recently deposed Sheik-ul-Islam, or patriarch of the Orthodox Muslims, who was said to be going to Mecca for pilgrimage. It was his efforts to prevent the cruel reprisals which, at Constantinople, followed the news of the massacres in Peloponnese, which brought him into disfavor, and caused his exile.[24] There were also several other Turkish families on board. British historian of the Greek revolt, Alison Phillips noted:The Hydriots murdered them all in cold blood, helpless old men, ladies of rank, beautiful slaves, and little children were butchered like cattle. The venerable old man, whose crime had been an excess of zeal on behalf of the Greeks, was forced to see his family outraged and murdered before his eyes…



Just a few reasons why we never wanted to become another Greek island, far from what Piratis claims not Butlins, we fought for survival.
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Postby YFred » Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:46 pm

Viewpoint wrote:
YFred wrote:
Piratis wrote:So you admit that you supported the Colonial power to fight against the revolution of the native Cypriot people. Enough said.

There is no legitimacy in the rule of Colonial powers Zan. It is time for you and the rest of Turks to come out of the Middle Ages.

Viewpoint, union with Greece was a legitimate option. The UN resolution for decolonization clearly defines "integration into an independent State" as one of the "three legitimate options" for the people being decolonized to democratically choose from.
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

Union with Greece did not mean a "death warrant" for the TC minority and this is just your lame excuses with imaginary scenarios. Rhodes which also has a Turkish minority joined Greece a few years earlier (1947) and nothing happened to the Turkish minority there. Also since the wars between Greece and Turkey ended, the Turks in Greece not only didn't die, but their numbers have been steadily increasing, something which is in contrast to the massive decline of the Greek populations in Turkey.

So your excuse not only is imaginary, but it doesn't stand logically either.

The historical fact in this case (and your imaginary scenarios do not constitute a historical fact) is that as you admitted the TCs collaborated with the British and the Turks and attacked the Greek Cypriots. And this is exactly what I said.


I wonder how much research has been done about the treatment of the Turkish community in Rhodes, Crete and Greece. Are they happy with their lot and do they have same rights as Greeks?

Or are they also being suffocated with love?


Everywhere, as though at a preconcerted signal, the peasantry rose, and massacred all the Turks—men, women and children—on whom they could lay hands. In the Morea shall no Turk be left. Nor in the whole wide world. Thus rang the song which, from mouth to mouth, announced the beginning of a war of extermination… Within three weeks of the outbreak of the revolt, not a Moslem was left, save those who had succeeded in escaping into the towns.

According to another historian of the Greek revolt, William St. Clair, upwards of twenty thousand Turkish men, women and children were killed by their Greek neighbors in a few weeks of slaughter.William St. Clair also argued that: “with the beginning of the revolt, the bishops and priests exhorted their parishioners to exterminate infidel Moslems.” St. Clair wrote:

The Turks of Greece left few traces. They disappeared suddenly and finally in the spring of 1821 unmourned and unnoticed by the rest of the world….It was hard to believe then that Greece once contained a large population of Turkish descent, living in small communities all over the country, prosperous farmers, merchants, and officials, whose families had known no other home for hundreds of years…They were killed deliberately, without qualm or scruple, and there was no regrets either then or later.

Atrocities toward the Turkish civilian population inhabiting the Peloponnese had started in the Achaia on the 28th of March, just with the beginning of the Greek revolt. On the 2nd of April, the outbreak became general over the whole of Peloponnese and on that day many Turks were murdered in different places. On the third of April 1821, the Turks of Kalavryta surrendered upon promises of security which were afterwards violated. Followingly, massacres ensued against the Turkish civilians in the towns of Peloponnese that the Greek revolutionnaries had captured.

The Turks in Monemvasia, weakened by the famine opened the gates of the city, and laid down their weapons. Six hundred of them had already gone on board the brigs, when the Mainotes burst into the town and started murdering all those who had not yet reached to the shore or those who had chosen to stay in the town. Those on the ships meanwhile were stripped of their clothes, beaten and left on a desolate rock in the Aegean, instead of being deported to Asia Minor as promised. Only a few of them were saved by a French merchant, called M. Bonfort.

A general massacre ensued the fall of Navarino on August 19, 1821. See Navarino Massacre.

The worst Greek atrocity in terms of the numbers of victims involved was the massacre following the Fall of Tripolitsa in 1822. Up to 30,000 Turks had been killed in Tripolitsa:

For three days the miserable inhabitants were given over to lust and cruelty of a mob of savages. Neither sex nor age was spared. Women and children were tortured before being put to death. So great was the slaughter that Kolokotronis himself says that, from the gate to the citadel his horse’s hoofs never touched the ground. His path of triumph was carpeted with corpses. At the end of two days, the wretched remnant of the Mussulmans were deliberately collected, to the number of some two thousand souls, of every age and sex, but principally women and children, were led out to a ravine in the neighboring mountains and there butchered like cattle.

Although the total estimates of the casualties vary, the Turkish, Moslem Albanian and Jewish population of the Peloponnese had ceased to exist as a settled community. Some estimates of the Turkish and Muslim Albanian civilian deaths by the rebels range from 15,000 out of 40,000 Muslim residents to 30,000 only in Tripolitsa. According to historians W.Alison Phillips, George Finlay, William St. Clair and Barbara Jelavich, massacres of Turkish civilians started simultaneously with the outbreak of the revolt,while Harris J. Booras and David Brewer wrote that the massacres followed the brutal hanging of Ecumenical Patriarch Gregory V of Constantinople.

Historian George Finlay claimed that the extermination of the Muslims in the rural districts was the result of a premeditated design and it proceeded more from the suggestions of men of letters, than form the revengeful feelings of the people.[18] William St. Clair wrote that: “The orgy of genocide exhausted itself in the Peloponnese only when there were no more Turks to kill.”

Central Greece

In Athens, 1,150 Turks, of whom only 180 were capable of bearing arms, surrendered upon promises of security. Alison Phillips noted that: A scene of horror followed which has only too many parallels during the course of this horrible war.

Vrachroi, modern day Agrinio, was an important town in West-Central Greece. It contained, besides the Christian population, some five hundred Mussulman families and about two hundred Jews. The massacres in Vrachori commenced with the Jews and soon Mussulmans shared the same fate.

Aegean Islands

There were also massacres towards the Muslim inhabitants of the islands in the Aegean Sea, in the early years of the Greek revolt. According to historian William St. clair, one of the aims of the Greek revolutionaries was to embroil as many Greek communities as possible in their struggle. Their technique was “to engineer some atrocity against the local Turkish population”,[23] so that these different Greek communities would have to ally themselves with the revolutionaries fearing a retaliation from the Ottomans.[23] In such a case, in March 1821, Greeks from the Samos island had landed in the Island Chios and attacked the Muslim population living in that island.[23]

Another similar massacre took place in the island Hydra, one of the most important Aegean islands. Besides the atrocities committed against the local Muslims in the island, two hybrid brigs captured a Turkish ship laden with a valuable cargo, and carrying a number of passengers. Among these was a recently deposed Sheik-ul-Islam, or patriarch of the Orthodox Muslims, who was said to be going to Mecca for pilgrimage. It was his efforts to prevent the cruel reprisals which, at Constantinople, followed the news of the massacres in Peloponnese, which brought him into disfavor, and caused his exile.[24] There were also several other Turkish families on board. British historian of the Greek revolt, Alison Phillips noted:The Hydriots murdered them all in cold blood, helpless old men, ladies of rank, beautiful slaves, and little children were butchered like cattle. The venerable old man, whose crime had been an excess of zeal on behalf of the Greeks, was forced to see his family outraged and murdered before his eyes…



Just a few reasons why we never wanted to become another Greek island, far from what Piratis claims not Butlins, we fought for survival.


If all the Greek Cypriot people were like Piratis, I would agree with you. But they are not. The last referendum was very unfair. With the next one you will see a different result. The majority of people in Cyprus are for peace. I have always believed that. We have allowed a small percentage of extremes on both sides to hijack our country and we are where we are. When I say small I mean in terms of percentage of population, but they have immense power in the media, and know how to use it to deliver results in polls.

We have to have such an arrangement that 1963 and later cannot be repeated again. Then we will have peace.

Trust in Talat.
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Postby YFred » Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:58 pm

Get Real! wrote:
YFred wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
YFred wrote:It seems to me that just because some TC’s joined the British polices and hanged convicted EOKA members, that gave you the right to wipe out the TC’s from Cyprus.

Some? You mean some 2,500? :lol: What gave your so-called "TC police" the right to kill EOKA members... the colonizer by any chance?

Isn’t that strange, have I seen that somewhere more recently. Try looking at Israel and its activities.

Rubbish!

Luckily you are in the minority even in the south.

We will have peace despite the presence of people like you, and this time you will not be allowed to wreck it. Fancy that.

Get out of the CyProb you silly fool!

Oracle hit the nail on the head when she called you a Y-front... :lol:


It takes one to know one my Hellenic friend.

Have you voted yet?

Hellenic? Go tell that to your linobambakos granny who had a boyfriend from each side! Image


True Cypriot than. Isn’t that what Aphrodite was famous for or am I mistaken there as well.
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Postby Get Real! » Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:22 pm

YFred wrote:
Get Real! wrote:Hellenic? Go tell that to your linobambakos granny who had a boyfriend from each side! Image

True Cypriot than. Isn’t that what Aphrodite was famous for or am I mistaken there as well.

I'm not interested in mythological characters... it's the alive & well ones I worry about.
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