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TR to build 21 mosques in occupied CY

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby samarkeolog » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:47 am

Icarus wrote:
samarkeolog wrote:
Icarus wrote:
samarkeolog wrote:
Get Real! wrote:The Turkish Cypriots should be given an ultimatum to repair all the churches within a reasonable period of time or Tekke turned into a pig sty.

Fair & square is the way I like it…


Fair and square: the Greek Cypriots should also be given the same amount of time to repair all of the mosques. But what will they do about the ones they razed to the ground?

I presume you want the Turkish Cypriots to rebuild the Church of Panagia Apagou in Khelones and the Church of Agia Katerina in Gerani.

So, presumably, the Greek Cypriots should also rebuild the mosques in Kidasi, Phalia, Goshi, Ktima Paphos, Deneia, Flasou, Korakou, Loukrounou, Fasli, Magounda...? (And I list those mosques because they're the ones documented by the bicommunal Cyprus Temples project, so you can't dismiss it as propaganda.)

What deadline would you like?

Presenting only one community as the victim is untrue and unhelpful. Nationalist extremists on both sides have destroyed lives and communities. If you don't acknowledge that and do something about it, you will never rescue your country, or even your community, because extremism will thrive and innocent individuals and communities will continue to suffer. If you want your churches repaired, why don't you consider a paired project - repair one church, repair one mosque?

If you continue to tell the other community to repair your churches while you leave their mosques to decay, and when you have destroyed so many mosques that are now not ruins, but archaeological sites under the soil, you will achieve nothing.


I have seen many mosques in the Republic of Cyprus in a very good state of repair. I can't say the same about Greek Orthodox Churches and cemeteries.

How much time is required recovering all Cypriot Antiquities and Byzantine Icons?

http://www.savingantiquities.org/featur ... sicons.php

http://www.greeknewsonline.com/modules. ... t&sid=4964

http://www.museum-security.org/cyprus-a ... n-rijn.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/04/01/world ... wanted=all

http://www.hri.org/Cyprus/Cyprus_Proble ... tion2.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1768274.stm


Less time would be required if the Republic of Cyprus did not buy back stolen antiquities from the market. A lot of the money goes to the Grey Wolves and the Turkish Deep State and bankrolls their continued looting and destruction.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

This is the most ridiculous statement.


So you've researched it yourself, have you?

Firstly, I am not sure as to the lengths the Republic of Cyprus is going to in order retrieve stolen antiquities and precious artifacts.


So no.

But if they are trying to buy there stolen artifacts, then I do not blame them.


Ridiculous, but at the same time perfectly understandable... A very Cypriot situation.

If the Grey Wolves (who, lest you forget, beat Greek Cypriots to death) loot Cypriot antiquities, and the Republic of Cyprus buys them... who profits?

Perhaps you should criticise, or at least question, the Republic.

National heritage is a very important thing, and I am sure that many of these items are priceless to all Cypriots.

But surely, if stolen artifacts are found overseas, then these artifacts would be returned to their rightful owners by the authorities, free of charge. This is what usually happens when stolen goods are found by law enforcement agencies. They are eventually returned!


Unfortunately, it's not ridiculous; tragically, it's fact.

In his autobiography, then antiquities director Vassos Karageorghis said that, already,

During the period from 1970 to 1974, under the pretext of supervising the work of the UNESCO experts at St. Sophia, I would often cross the "border" in the car of [UNESCO conservator Dr.] Carlo Musso.... I bought for the Cyprus Museum a good number of important objects ['illegal antiquities'].... I did not pay cash... I would bring them a government cheque from the Central Bank (2007: 102-103).


Now, Greek Cypriots do accept that TMT controlled the enclaves, don't they? So, they do accept that some of the profit from looting and trading in the enclaves would have gone to TMT, don't they? If not, I can provide other proof...

Then, since the Turkish invasion of 1974 (when the Turkish Deep State and the Grey Wolves controlled the looting and smuggling of antiquities in northern Cyprus)...

The Committee for the Preservation of the Cultural Heritage of Cyprus stated that,

The Government of Cyprus, together with... the Leventis Foundation, had to pay high prices to foreign auction houses for the purchase of the stolen treasures belonging to the people of Cyprus (1985: 69).


In another CPCHC book, Karageorghis noted that,

Since 1974 many Cypriot antiquities stolen... have been bought by the A.G. Leventis Foundation and donated to the Cyprus Museum’ (Karageorghis, 2000: 218).


(And Karageorghis often, if not always, solicited that funding.)

Honorary Consul of Cyprus in the Hague, and Cultural Representative of the Church of Cyprus, Tasoula Georgiou-Hadjitofi (2000: 231) stated that the Archbishop of the Church of Cyprus and its Holy Synod 'approved the sum to be used to "buy [back]" these [stolen] works of art', and the General Secretary of the CPCHC, Maria Anagnostopoulou, acknowledged that the Republic of Cyprus (still) 'pays large sums to rescue cultural goods', 'astronomical sums' (2000: 25; 37).

Anagnostopoulou, M. 2000: "The looting of Cyprus". In Committee for the Protection of the Cultural Heritage of Cyprus, (Ed.). Cyprus: A civilization plundered, 22-41. Athens: The Hellenic Parliament.

Committee for the Preservation of the Cultural Heritage of Cyprus. 1985: "Cyprus - the plundering of a 9000-year-old civilization". In Committee for the Preservation of the Cultural Heritage of Cyprus, (Ed.). Cyprus - the plundering of a 9000 year-old civilization, 58-141. Athens: Academy of Athens.

Georgiou-Hadjitofi, T L. 2000: "Cyprus: The long return home". In Committee for the Protection of the Cultural Heritage of Cyprus, (Ed.). Cyprus: A civilization plundered, 222-235. Athens: The Hellenic Parliament.

Karageorghis, V. 2000: "The repatriation of Cypriot antiquities (1974-1997)". In Committee for the Protection of the Cultural Heritage of Cyprus, (Ed.). Cyprus: A civilization plundered, 214-221. Athens: The Hellenic Parliament.

Karageorghis, V. 2007: A lifetime in the archaeology of Cyprus: The memoirs of Vassos Karageorghis. Stockholm: Medelhavsmuseet.
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Postby samarkeolog » Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:05 am

Get Real! wrote:Samarkeolog,

Mosques and Islam in general, has been alive and well in the unoccupied area of Cyprus ever since I can remember…


How's your memory?

They clearly haven't been alive and well since 1974; and many mosques were completely destroyed between 1963 and 1974 (several of which I listed and provided a reliable link to support).

http://www.islamicfinder.org/worldIslamicCountry.php?more=more&startPoint=0&endPoint=50&country=Cyprus&lang=

This Islamic website being run in the unoccupied area of Cyprus, belongs to a CF member…

http://www.geocities.com/qamarsland/cig.html


The government restored a few mosques in touristic places; it rented one or two to Colonel Gaddafi (e.g. Omeriye Mosque, as I was told by the Muslims at Omeriye Mosque); it did not deny licences to a few halal butchers, who serve the Muslim exploited labourers.

Is that what you consider a community alive and well? Southern Cyprus's "Sri Lankan (Asian, agricultural and factory worker)" and "Filipino (Asian, domestic worker)" communities?

From your link, take a look at the pictures of the mosques and compare those to the state of so many of the churches in the occupied territory…

http://cyprustemples.com/selectreligion.asp


I knows churches have been treated badly. I said churches have been treated badly. I visited many churches in northern Cyprus. Obviously, I have already looked at the churches on the Cyprus Temples website. I provided links to information about two churches razed to the ground. Will Greek Cypriots please stop ignoring what I say? Especially when I'm agreeing with them!

As for the land being used by Ottomans to erect Mosques, the Ottomans gave their soldiers land grants provided they settled on Cyprus, so where do you suppose the Ottomans got that land from?


I don't know, but I suspect a lot of the land was from the Latins who were thrown out, who the Orthodox Christians were delighted to get rid of; most, if not all, of the churches converted into mosques by the Ottomans were Latin churches.

Oracle, I believe GR! can do better than that.
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Postby wyoming cowboy » Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:21 am

I think you mispronounced the sultans name im almost sure its Sultan Bashokolos
DT. wrote:
YFred wrote:
denizaksulu wrote:
YFred wrote:
denizaksulu wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:According to an article in yesterday's Afrika newspaper, Turkey is providing 3.75 million TL in support for health services, 4 million TL in support for education and 16 million TL to build these 21 new mosques. Are the existing mosques in Cyprus filled to capacity?



These mosques are clearly for the settlers. For mosques, read voting booths. In Turkey they give free refrigerators in Cyprus its mosques. I hope its all a joke. I doubt if there is enough Vakf land to build these. Oh, I forgot why not steal more Cypriot land!! What a good idea. :twisted:

Most of Varosha belongs to vakif so all they have to do is exchange, I am sure GC owners would love to do that exchange. :wink:



I keep on telling them to give Varosha back, but some say NO, because they shouldnt have to give Vakif land back.

But seriously, we would benefit more handing back Varosha as a VERY GOOD good will gesture.

Deniz, we can't give back what belongs to us, we can exchange, in terms of value, Varosha is worth the rest of TRNC, fair exchange, and we get to keep Guzelyurt, just to upset some forumers. :wink: :wink:


Our title deeds say something different. Now unless you can summon Sultan Bashopouttos up from the dead to testify I suggest you quit talking crap and learn to function within the realms of this planet.
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Postby samarkeolog » Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:26 am

Icarus wrote:
samarkeolog wrote:
Get Real! wrote:The Turkish Cypriots should be given an ultimatum to repair all the churches within a reasonable period of time or Tekke turned into a pig sty.

Fair & square is the way I like it…


Fair and square: the Greek Cypriots should also be given the same amount of time to repair all of the mosques. But what will they do about the ones they razed to the ground?

I presume you want the Turkish Cypriots to rebuild the Church of Panagia Apagou in Khelones and the Church of Agia Katerina in Gerani.

So, presumably, the Greek Cypriots should also rebuild the mosques in Kidasi, Phalia, Goshi, Ktima Paphos, Deneia, Flasou, Korakou, Loukrounou, Fasli, Magounda...? (And I list those mosques because they're the ones documented by the bicommunal Cyprus Temples project, so you can't dismiss it as propaganda.)

What deadline would you like?

Presenting only one community as the victim is untrue and unhelpful. Nationalist extremists on both sides have destroyed lives and communities. If you don't acknowledge that and do something about it, you will never rescue your country, or even your community, because extremism will thrive and innocent individuals and communities will continue to suffer. If you want your churches repaired, why don't you consider a paired project - repair one church, repair one mosque?

If you continue to tell the other community to repair your churches while you leave their mosques to decay, and when you have destroyed so many mosques that are now not ruins, but archaeological sites under the soil, you will achieve nothing.


I have seen many mosques in the Republic of Cyprus in a very good state of repair. I can't say the same about Greek Orthodox Churches and cemeteries.

How much time is required recovering all Cypriot Antiquities and Byzantine Icons?

http://www.savingantiquities.org/featur ... sicons.php

http://www.greeknewsonline.com/modules. ... t&sid=4964

http://www.museum-security.org/cyprus-a ... n-rijn.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/04/01/world ... wanted=all

http://www.hri.org/Cyprus/Cyprus_Proble ... tion2.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1768274.stm


Before you fly too high, perhaps you should read some of the things you linked to.

Here: http://www.nytimes.com/1998/04/01/world ... wanted=all

[Dutch antiquities dealer and smuggler, Michel van Rijn] approached Tasoula Georgiou-Hadjitofi, the honorary Greek Cypriot consul in The Hague, and offered to recover three mosaics stolen from the Kanakaria church plus some 40 frescoes also in Mr. Dikman's [Turkish antiquities dealer and smuggler, Aydin Dikmen's] possession. The Cypriot Government raised $500,000 from private sources and bought the items from intermediaries working for Mr. Dikman.


While you're there,

Visits to Greek Cypriot monuments and Orthodox churches in the north confirmed that the Denktash government had taken steps to preserve religious sites [but other places had been looted].


Good and bad, like in the South. :eyecrazy:

If you do want to blame someone, maybe you could consider blaming the nationalists...

''We could work together to protect our cultural patrimony were it not for politics,'' a Cypriot cultural official complained. ''But if you quote me by name, I'll lose my job.''


Here: http://www.museum-security.org/cyprus-a ... n-rijn.htm

Dutch antique dealer Michel Van Rijn has made sensational disclosures on how he was recruited by Greek Cypriot authorities to organise the theft and then smuggling abroad of historic heritage from Northern Cyprus.

Michel Van Rijn stated that in 1988 he was first approached by Mr[s]. Hadjitofi, the Greek Cypriot honorary consul in the Hague, and he was instructed to organise the theft and then the smuggling abroad of antiquities from Northern Cyprus. The smuggled items were subsequently “purchased” and returned to the Greek Cypriot Orthodox Church amidst large scale press coverage. Michel Van Rijn further claimed that some antiquities were smuggled from southern Cyprus with the full knowledge of Mr. Kargargis [Karageorghis], the director of antiquities department of the Greek Cypriot administration. These items were also “purchased back” and among great publicity blaming Turkey were returned to the Greek Cypriot Orthodox Church.

When it became clear that the aim of the Greek Cypriot authorities was anti-Turkish propaganda and not the recovery of the antiquities, Michel Van Rijn held a press conference at Westbury Hotel in London and presented documents to support his disclosures. The documents included photocopies of some Greek Cypriot Central Bank and Crete Hellenic Bank Cheques.

Michel Van Rijn has applied through his solicitors to the Greek Cypriot Administration demanding millions of dollars for the services he rendered under agreement to the Greek Cypriot Administration.


(But don't read Michael Jansen (or Vicki Yiannis's article summarising her): Jansen's work is bad and biased. I've written a short query of her work, and a long critique.)

[Edited to correct the quote's typos.]
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Postby Oracle » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:27 am

samarkeolog wrote:
Oracle wrote:
samarkeolog wrote:Here are the remains of Goshi Mosque (Kossi Camisi).

If the churches are to be restored, and the mosques, so should the homes. Eighty Greek Cypriot homes have been destroyed in Rizokarpaso. Up to a few hundred Greek Cypriot homes may have been destroyed during the 1963-1974 conflict. Thousands of Turkish Cypriot homes have been destroyed across the island.

Greek Cypriots rightly complain that their churches have been damaged or destroyed. But many mosques have been destroyed, and entire Turkish Cypriot villages. It's historically inaccurate and dangerous only to acknowledge and talk about churches' treatment. It encourages bitterness and division, and will help keep the island partitioned.

[Edited to make it read 1963-1974, not 1963-197...]


Before you make sweeping statements, perhaps you need to look into the history of "entire Turkish Cypriot villages " that were "destroyed" or of "razed" mosques .... and make sure that the Turkish Army/TMT or more natural elements like earthquakes and weather were not instrumental in these processes.


Pano Koutraphas was not destroyed by earthquake (unless it was a bloody tiny one, which didn't even make it to Kato Koutraphas...).

Agioi Eliophotoi was not washed down the hillside in the rain (unless it really was made of very poor stone, and the perfect, untouched church above it was built upon far firmer foundations...).

TMT did not destroy them.

The Turkish Army did not destroy them.

You embarrass yourself with these unscientific ideas and conspiracy theories.


Once again you make sweeping statements without evidence or proof. The fact you "say so" does not make it true or lend it authority.

The photos are useless at backing up your assumptions. There are no before photographs to line up to any landmarks. There are no "during" photographs to show this destruction which you claim. There is no evidence for you to dismiss any other more likely, but less favourable to your accusations, explanations. Yet your arrogance has made the decision!

What is more, your assumptions and sweeping statements continue into putting words into other people's mouths on your own blog ...

"Eliophotes: buildings 6c - the mosque and the Church of Ayioi Eliophotes. Turkish Cypriot journalist Hasan Karaokçu (2003) said that '[o]nly the village fountain and mosque remained'. I can't believe he wanted to say church but accidentally said mosque. He must have meant this ruin."

How scientific is that: "I can't believe ...." ?

and: "He must have meant ..." !

... You are another one who fills in the gaps of his knowledge, with crap. :lol:

So, where is any proof for your sweeping statements and "scientific" accusations?

Yes earthquakes can happen in one part of the earth and not another. Yes one building can fall down at the top of a mountain and the one at the bottom not fall ... Do you have seismic profiles from when you claim this was destroyed to prove there were no shakes? Then you are not being scientific with your evidence, and prefer your assumptions.

You are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts! :wink:
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Postby samarkeolog » Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:38 am

Oracle wrote:
samarkeolog wrote:
Oracle wrote:
samarkeolog wrote:Here are the remains of Goshi Mosque (Kossi Camisi).

If the churches are to be restored, and the mosques, so should the homes. Eighty Greek Cypriot homes have been destroyed in Rizokarpaso. Up to a few hundred Greek Cypriot homes may have been destroyed during the 1963-1974 conflict. Thousands of Turkish Cypriot homes have been destroyed across the island.

Greek Cypriots rightly complain that their churches have been damaged or destroyed. But many mosques have been destroyed, and entire Turkish Cypriot villages. It's historically inaccurate and dangerous only to acknowledge and talk about churches' treatment. It encourages bitterness and division, and will help keep the island partitioned.

[Edited to make it read 1963-1974, not 1963-197...]


Before you make sweeping statements, perhaps you need to look into the history of "entire Turkish Cypriot villages " that were "destroyed" or of "razed" mosques .... and make sure that the Turkish Army/TMT or more natural elements like earthquakes and weather were not instrumental in these processes.


Pano Koutraphas was not destroyed by earthquake (unless it was a bloody tiny one, which didn't even make it to Kato Koutraphas...).

Agioi Eliophotoi was not washed down the hillside in the rain (unless it really was made of very poor stone, and the perfect, untouched church above it was built upon far firmer foundations...).

TMT did not destroy them.

The Turkish Army did not destroy them.

You embarrass yourself with these unscientific ideas and conspiracy theories.


Once again you make sweeping statements without evidence or proof. The fact you "say so" does not make it true or lend it authority.

The photos are useless at backing up your assumptions. There are no before photographs to line up to any landmarks.


In Pano Koutraphas, there are no landmarks. There is no anything. What landmark would you like!? Go. Look for yourself. A word of advice: you won't find Pano Koutraphas. It's gone. So go to Kato Koutraphas. The locals are lovely. They'll give you directions.

In Agioi Eliophotes, there is the church, and the fountain. (The concrete fountain is still there in Pano Koutraphas, but it's not easily visible; in Agioi Eliophotes, the fountain's got a roof, so you would notice it.)

There are no "during" photographs to show this destruction which you claim.


Of course there are no fucking during photographs. Do you think they took holiday snaps? "Here's Fotis in front of the fountain... Here's Marios on top of the mosque... There's Hari 'behind' the house - and look, you can still see all of him except his feet!"?

There is, of course, a signature: LOK (ΛΟΚ). Whose signature was that? Lambros Orfeas Konstantinidis? Louloudakis Oglanis Kalochortikis?

There is no evidence for you to dismiss any other more likely, but less favourable to your accusations, explanations.


You haven't provided any evidence whatsoever. You have said that nature exists. Why is that "explanation" more likely?

Should the Turkish army now say, like a child, "prooove it. You don't have any photographs of us doing it, do you? So it must have been nature. An earthquake ruined your church. The rain did it"?

Yet your arrogance has made the decision!

What is more, your assumptions and sweeping statements continue into putting words into other people's mouths on your own blog ...

Eliophotes: buildings 6c - the mosque and the Church of Ayioi Eliophotes. Turkish Cypriot journalist Hasan Karaokçu (2003) said that '[o]nly the village fountain and mosque remained'. I can't believe he wanted to say church but accidentally said mosque. He must have meant this ruin.

How scientific is that: "I cant believe ...." ?

and: "He must have wanted to say ..."

... You are another one who fills in the gaps of his knowledge, with crap.

So where is any proof for your sweeping statements and "scientific" accusations?


Okay, so he wanted to say church. You can have it however you like it. I guess you do. It's the only building left.

Yes earthquakes can happen in one part of the earth and not another.


Nice line. But, obviously, I never denied that.

Yes one building can fall down at the top of a mountain and the one at the bottom not fall ...


Again, nice misdirection. Again, obviously, I never denied that.

But the earth is not the butler. You cannot always blame the earth.

Do you have seismic profiles from when you claim this was destroyed? Then you are not being scientific with your evidence and prefer your assumptions.


I may not be being scientific, but you are being absurd.

You are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts!


If you insist upon denying any nationalist extremists did anything to anywhere, I can at least tell you how some of the Turkish Cypriot village of Alifodez disappeared: 'In Apr[il] 1977 some of the old bldgs [buildings] were being demolished as road improvement was undertaken' (Goodwin, 1978: 283).

And before you claim that this was when everything happened, remember the 67B and 68B carved inside the ruins, which means that by 1967, the houses must already have... what, slipped, lost their step and banged their head?

Goodwin, J C. 1978: An historical toponymy of Cyprus. Nicosia: Jack C. Goodwin.
Last edited by samarkeolog on Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Icarus » Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:41 am

samarkeolog wrote:
Icarus wrote:
samarkeolog wrote:
Icarus wrote:
samarkeolog wrote:
Get Real! wrote:The Turkish Cypriots should be given an ultimatum to repair all the churches within a reasonable period of time or Tekke turned into a pig sty.

Fair & square is the way I like it…


Fair and square: the Greek Cypriots should also be given the same amount of time to repair all of the mosques. But what will they do about the ones they razed to the ground?

I presume you want the Turkish Cypriots to rebuild the Church of Panagia Apagou in Khelones and the Church of Agia Katerina in Gerani.

So, presumably, the Greek Cypriots should also rebuild the mosques in Kidasi, Phalia, Goshi, Ktima Paphos, Deneia, Flasou, Korakou, Loukrounou, Fasli, Magounda...? (And I list those mosques because they're the ones documented by the bicommunal Cyprus Temples project, so you can't dismiss it as propaganda.)

What deadline would you like?

Presenting only one community as the victim is untrue and unhelpful. Nationalist extremists on both sides have destroyed lives and communities. If you don't acknowledge that and do something about it, you will never rescue your country, or even your community, because extremism will thrive and innocent individuals and communities will continue to suffer. If you want your churches repaired, why don't you consider a paired project - repair one church, repair one mosque?

If you continue to tell the other community to repair your churches while you leave their mosques to decay, and when you have destroyed so many mosques that are now not ruins, but archaeological sites under the soil, you will achieve nothing.


I have seen many mosques in the Republic of Cyprus in a very good state of repair. I can't say the same about Greek Orthodox Churches and cemeteries.

How much time is required recovering all Cypriot Antiquities and Byzantine Icons?

http://www.savingantiquities.org/featur ... sicons.php

http://www.greeknewsonline.com/modules. ... t&sid=4964

http://www.museum-security.org/cyprus-a ... n-rijn.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/04/01/world ... wanted=all

http://www.hri.org/Cyprus/Cyprus_Proble ... tion2.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1768274.stm


Less time would be required if the Republic of Cyprus did not buy back stolen antiquities from the market. A lot of the money goes to the Grey Wolves and the Turkish Deep State and bankrolls their continued looting and destruction.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

This is the most ridiculous statement.


So you've researched it yourself, have you?


Yes I have researched it.

You made the ludicrous assertion that the RoC is inadvertantly funding the Grey Wolves.

Where is you the evidence?

And since you are deeply concerned about the RoC inadvertantly funding nationalist groups, then why doesn't the "TRNC" do something about it by preventing Greek Cypriot Antiquities from being sold on the black market in the first place.?

So the "TRNC" is an accomplice to the underground activities of the Grey Wolves, is it? This does not surprie me one bit...

In any case, the RoC has every right to try and regain my lost inheritance from the black market. Money is absolutely no object in this instance.

There is absolutely no evidence to prove your sweeping statement that the RoC is inadvertently funding the Grey Wolves.

Your the one making these claims, and so it is YOU who should do your research and prove to us that what you say is accurate...

Ridiculous, but at the same time perfectly understandable... A very Cypriot situation.

If the Grey Wolves (who, lest you forget, beat Greek Cypriots to death) loot Cypriot antiquities, and the Republic of Cyprus buys them... who profits?

Perhaps you should criticise, or at least question, the Republic.


How is this ridiculous? Cypriots have a very rich history and you bastards are destroying our inheritance. Of course we are going to do everything we can to prevent the destruction of our heritage, because once these artifacts are gone, theey are gone forever.

I know all about the Grey Wolves. By just blaming the Grey Wolves for the deaths of ISAAC and SOLOMOU is outrageous.

The "TRNC Minister of Agriculture" killed Solomou, and therefore the Grey Wolves can not be blamed. All Turkish Cypriots are to blame. When your "elected" minister pulled that trigger, every TC was pulling the trigger with him. And the fact that this criminal walks free and will be a part of the new "Eroglu Government" speaks volumes about your terrorist "state-let".

http://www.argyrosargyrou.fsnet.co.uk/Solomou.htm

I do not criticise the RoC. I can only try and assist the RoC in its quest for liberation, if I can. It is the RoC which faces the continued injustice of your occupation, and so whatever the RoC decides to do, is justified in its own quest for salvation.

Unfortunately, it's not ridiculous; tragically, it's fact.


Then provide us with your evidence. Just because YOU state it is a fact does not make it so.

And in any case, I would be disappointed if the RoC did not do everything in its power to regain my inheritance.

In his autobiography, then antiquities director Vassos Karageorghis said that, already,

During the period from 1970 to 1974, under the pretext of supervising the work of the UNESCO experts at St. Sophia, I would often cross the "border" in the car of [UNESCO conservator Dr.] Carlo Musso.... I bought for the Cyprus Museum a good number of important objects ['illegal antiquities'].... I did not pay cash... I would bring them a government cheque from the Central Bank (2007: 102-103).


And how does the above prove that the RoC was buying these STOLEN artifacts from the Grey Wolves?

Now, Greek Cypriots do accept that TMT controlled the enclaves, don't they? So, they do accept that some of the profit from looting and trading in the enclaves would have gone to TMT, don't they? If not, I can provide other proof...


The TMT disbanded in 1974. So how could it have been responsible for all the looting in Cyprus when most of the looting was done AFTER the second Turkish offensive. Stolen artifacts are sold on the black market to this very day. Is the TMT still to blame? :lol:

Once again you make these sweeping statements with no evidence.

Then, since the Turkish invasion of 1974 (when the Turkish Deep State and the Grey Wolves controlled the looting and smuggling of antiquities in northern Cyprus)...


Even if this was the case, how can anyone blame the RoC from doing anything possible to regain the inheritance of all Cypriots?

You make absolutely no sense....

The Committee for the Preservation of the Cultural Heritage of Cyprus stated that,

The Government of Cyprus, together with... the Leventis Foundation, had to pay high prices to foreign auction houses for the purchase of the stolen treasures belonging to the people of Cyprus (1985: 69).


The Leventis Foundation is always doing many good things for Cyprus. Mr. Leventis was a true humanitarian...

I thank him for all his efforts and for donating lots of money so that the Cypriots can regain their inheritance. :D

In another CPCHC book, Karageorghis noted that,

Since 1974 many Cypriot antiquities stolen... have been bought by the A.G. Leventis Foundation and donated to the Cyprus Museum’ (Karageorghis, 2000: 218).


Thank you Mr. Leventis! :D

(And Karageorghis often, if not always, solicited that funding.)

Honorary Consul of Cyprus in the Hague, and Cultural Representative of the Church of Cyprus, Tasoula Georgiou-Hadjitofi (2000: 231) stated that the Archbishop of the Church of Cyprus and its Holy Synod 'approved the sum to be used to "buy [back]" these [stolen] works of art', and the General Secretary of the CPCHC, Maria Anagnostopoulou, acknowledged that the Republic of Cyprus (still) 'pays large sums to rescue cultural goods', 'astronomical sums' (2000: 25; 37).


Many of the stolen artifacts such as Byzantine icons are the possession of the the church and the Cypriot people. So trying to regain their priceless icons is the least they can do.

The RoC has a duty to preserve the inheritance of the Cypriot people. and since this is what they are doing, the Cypriot people are very thankful.

Still no proof about the inadvertent funding of the Grey Wolves I see.

Anagnostopoulou, M. 2000: "The looting of Cyprus". In Committee for the Protection of the Cultural Heritage of Cyprus, (Ed.). Cyprus: A civilization plundered, 22-41. Athens: The Hellenic Parliament.

Committee for the Preservation of the Cultural Heritage of Cyprus. 1985: "Cyprus - the plundering of a 9000-year-old civilization". In Committee for the Preservation of the Cultural Heritage of Cyprus, (Ed.). Cyprus - the plundering of a 9000 year-old civilization, 58-141. Athens: Academy of Athens.

Georgiou-Hadjitofi, T L. 2000: "Cyprus: The long return home". In Committee for the Protection of the Cultural Heritage of Cyprus, (Ed.). Cyprus: A civilization plundered, 222-235. Athens: The Hellenic Parliament.

Karageorghis, V. 2000: "The repatriation of Cypriot antiquities (1974-1997)". In Committee for the Protection of the Cultural Heritage of Cyprus, (Ed.). Cyprus: A civilization plundered, 214-221. Athens: The Hellenic Parliament.

Karageorghis, V. 2007: A lifetime in the archaeology of Cyprus: The memoirs of Vassos Karageorghis. Stockholm: Medelhavsmuseet.


Great...So the RoC, the Leventis Foundation, and the Church of Cyprus are trying to recover my inheritance.

No wonder I feel proud to be a Cypriot... :D
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Postby samarkeolog » Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:00 am

Okay. Let's take this step-by-step, shall we?

Icarus wrote:
samarkeolog wrote:
Icarus wrote:
samarkeolog wrote:
Icarus wrote:
samarkeolog wrote:
Get Real! wrote:The Turkish Cypriots should be given an ultimatum to repair all the churches within a reasonable period of time or Tekke turned into a pig sty.

Fair & square is the way I like it…


Fair and square: the Greek Cypriots should also be given the same amount of time to repair all of the mosques. But what will they do about the ones they razed to the ground?

I presume you want the Turkish Cypriots to rebuild the Church of Panagia Apagou in Khelones and the Church of Agia Katerina in Gerani.

So, presumably, the Greek Cypriots should also rebuild the mosques in Kidasi, Phalia, Goshi, Ktima Paphos, Deneia, Flasou, Korakou, Loukrounou, Fasli, Magounda...? (And I list those mosques because they're the ones documented by the bicommunal Cyprus Temples project, so you can't dismiss it as propaganda.)

What deadline would you like?

Presenting only one community as the victim is untrue and unhelpful. Nationalist extremists on both sides have destroyed lives and communities. If you don't acknowledge that and do something about it, you will never rescue your country, or even your community, because extremism will thrive and innocent individuals and communities will continue to suffer. If you want your churches repaired, why don't you consider a paired project - repair one church, repair one mosque?

If you continue to tell the other community to repair your churches while you leave their mosques to decay, and when you have destroyed so many mosques that are now not ruins, but archaeological sites under the soil, you will achieve nothing.


I have seen many mosques in the Republic of Cyprus in a very good state of repair. I can't say the same about Greek Orthodox Churches and cemeteries.

How much time is required recovering all Cypriot Antiquities and Byzantine Icons?

http://www.savingantiquities.org/featur ... sicons.php

http://www.greeknewsonline.com/modules. ... t&sid=4964

http://www.museum-security.org/cyprus-a ... n-rijn.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/04/01/world ... wanted=all

http://www.hri.org/Cyprus/Cyprus_Proble ... tion2.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1768274.stm


Less time would be required if the Republic of Cyprus did not buy back stolen antiquities from the market. A lot of the money goes to the Grey Wolves and the Turkish Deep State and bankrolls their continued looting and destruction.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

This is the most ridiculous statement.


So you've researched it yourself, have you?


Yes I have researched it.


Okay, see my other post, where I point out that the links you posted said that the Republic of Cyprus paid for stolen antiquities. So, if you had read them, you would have agreed with me, not accused me of having no evidence.

You stated that the RoC is funding the Grey Wolves thus making the ludicrous assertion that the RoC is inadvertently funding the Grey Wolves.

Where is you the evidence?


Well, that was the same statement twice, but I know what you mean. Given your own sources say that the Republic of Cyprus buys looted antiquities (as do the Greek Cypriot sources I quoted in the post you replied to), I presume the evidence you want is for the Grey Wolves' (or, rather, the Turkish Deep State's) control of the antiquities trade.

The Turkish National Intelligence Organisation, MIT (or, more accurately, elements within MIT, the Turkish Deep State) control the heroin trade, and use the Grey Wolves.

The heroin smugglers are also the antiquities smugglers.

Which scary motherfuckers defeated the Turkish Deep State and took control of the antiquities trade? And, if someone else does run the antiquities trade, why do they let the Turkish Deep State continue to loot, smuggle and sell antiquities?

In any case, the RoC has every right to try and regain my lost inheritance from the black market. Money is absolutely no object in this instance.

There is absolutely no evidence to prove your sweeping statement that the RoC is inadvertently funding the Grey Wolves.

Your the one making these claims, and so it is YOU who should do your research and prove to us that what you say is accurate...

Ridiculous, but at the same time perfectly understandable... A very Cypriot situation.

If the Grey Wolves (who, lest you forget, beat Greek Cypriots to death) loot Cypriot antiquities, and the Republic of Cyprus buys them... who profits?

Perhaps you should criticise, or at least question, the Republic.


How is this ridiculous?


"Ridiculous" was a reference to your statement that it was "ridiculous" to say the Republic of Cyprus had ever bought stolen antiquities.

"Ridiculous, but at the same time perfectly understandable" was a reference to you having said that the idea of the Republic of Cyprus buying stolen antiquities was ridiculous, but then saying that it had a right to do it and that money should be no object. (I.e. that it should do it, "it" being the thing you said was ridiculous.)

Cypriots have a very rich history and you bastards are destroying our inheritance.


Us bastards?

Oh! You think I'm Turkish. Of course. But no. I'm afraid it's even worse. I'm a Brit.

And, just to clarify, I'm also an archaeologist, who chose to come to Cyprus to work, because of its rich history.

And, to be even clearer, that's why the mafia and terrorists and extremists are looting and selling your history, because it's valuable. I'm trying to help you to stop them.

And my first piece of advice: stop giving them money.

Of course we are going to do everything we can to prevent the destruction of our heritage, because once these artifacts are gone, theey are gone forever.

I know all about the Grey Wolves. By just blaming the Grey Wolves for the deaths of ISAAC and SOLOMOU is outrageous.

The "TRNC Minister of Agriculture" killed Solomou, and therefore the Grey Wolves can not be blamed. All Turkish Cypriots are to blame.


Collective guilt? Is that an ancient Greek principle? Blame the innocent because they speak the same language as the guilty? That's outrageous.

When your "elected" minister pulled that trigger, every TC was pulling the trigger with him. And the fact that this criminal walks free and will be a part of the new "Eroglu Government" speaks volumes about your terrorist "state-let".

http://www.argyrosargyrou.fsnet.co.uk/Solomou.htm


Oh, you think I'm Turkish Cypriot. Still no.

And you may want to reconsider your policy of collective guilt, given what some Greek Cypriot ministers have done, while they had elected office, and after which they retained or regained elected office. Just a thought.

I do not criticise the RoC. I can only try and assist the RoC in its quest for liberation, if I can. It is the RoC which faces the continued injustice of your occupation, and so whatever the RoC decides to do, is justified in its own quest for salvation.


Am I still Turkish Cypriot, or am I Turkish again? Turkish Cypriots are not occupying anywhere. The Turkish Army is occupying northern Cyprus.

Unfortunately, it's not ridiculous; tragically, it's fact.


Then provide us with your evidence. Just because YOU state it is a fact does not make it so.

And in any case, I would be disappointed if the RoC did not do everything in its power to regain my inheritance.

In his autobiography, then antiquities director Vassos Karageorghis said that, already,

During the period from 1970 to 1974, under the pretext of supervising the work of the UNESCO experts at St. Sophia, I would often cross the "border" in the car of [UNESCO conservator Dr.] Carlo Musso.... I bought for the Cyprus Museum a good number of important objects ['illegal antiquities'].... I did not pay cash... I would bring them a government cheque from the Central Bank (2007: 102-103).


And how does the above prove that the RoC was buying these STOLEN artifacts from the Grey Wolves?


Not from the Grey Wolves; from the enclaved Turkish Cypriots. The enclaves were controlled by TMT; TMT profited from control of the enclaves.

And Turkish Cypriot antiquities smuggler Tremeseli Mehmet Ali Ilkman was a TMT fighter. I'm not saying the Republic of Cyprus bought antiquities from Ilkman. I'm saying that he's proof that TMT were involved in the antiquities trade, so when the RoC funded the antiquities trade, it would have been funding TMT, incidentally.

Now, Greek Cypriots do accept that TMT controlled the enclaves, don't they? So, they do accept that some of the profit from looting and trading in the enclaves would have gone to TMT, don't they? If not, I can provide other proof...


The TMT disbanded in 1974. So how could it have been responsible for all the looting in Cyprus when most of the looting was done AFTER the second Turkish offensive. Stolen artifacts are sold on the black market to this very day. Is the TMT still to blame? :lol:


First of all, TMT did not disband. It was reformed as the Turkish Cypriot Security Forces Command (Guvenlik Kuvvetleri Komutanligi (GKK)). And it was part of the Turkish Deep State anyway, so whether you talk about TMT antiquities smugglers or Turkish Deep State smugglers, it's the same gang.

Second of all, Tremeseli Mehmet Ali Ilkman was a TMT fighter and MIT (Turkish National Intelligence Organisation) officer, who was a key point in the illicit antiquities trade, both between 1963 and 1974 and afterwards. (Michael Jansen does discuss that in her book. This link shows he was still active recently. I'm afraid this link is dead, but it used to lead to an article called "History gushed out of Tremeseli's house".) Even when smugglers were no longer in TMT, their network was still a TMT/Turkish Deep State network.

Once again you make these sweeping statements with no evidence.

Then, since the Turkish invasion of 1974 (when the Turkish Deep State and the Grey Wolves controlled the looting and smuggling of antiquities in northern Cyprus)...


Even if this was the case, how can anyone blame the RoC from doing anything possible to regain the inheritance of all Cypriots?

You make absolutely no sense....


Okay, let's try to spell it out:

Terrorists and paramilitaries fund their activities by looting and smuggling antiquities.

Terrorists' and paramilitaries' victims buy looted and smuggled antiquities.

Terrorists' and paramilitaries' victims fund terrorists' and paramilitaries' activities.

When Greek Cypriots buy antiquities looted and smuggled by the Turkish Deep State, they fund it; they pay for its bullets, and for its bombs.

More people in Britain, the Netherlands, Germany, etc. pay for more bullets and more bombs by buying heroin the Turkish Deep State has processed and smuggled through Turkey and northern Cyprus; but anyone paying money into a business run by the Turkish Deep State is incidentally funding it.

The Committee for the Preservation of the Cultural Heritage of Cyprus stated that,

The Government of Cyprus, together with... the Leventis Foundation, had to pay high prices to foreign auction houses for the purchase of the stolen treasures belonging to the people of Cyprus (1985: 69).


The Leventis Foundation is always doing many good things for Cyprus. Mr. Leventis was a true humanitarian...

I thank him for all his efforts and for donating lots of money so that the Cypriots can regain their inheritance. :D


I never said he was not a humanitarian. I believe the Leventis Foundation is trying to do the right thing. I just think it doesn't understand the situation.

In another CPCHC book, Karageorghis noted that,

Since 1974 many Cypriot antiquities stolen... have been bought by the A.G. Leventis Foundation and donated to the Cyprus Museum’ (Karageorghis, 2000: 218).


Thank you Mr. Leventis! :D

(And Karageorghis often, if not always, solicited that funding.)

Honorary Consul of Cyprus in the Hague, and Cultural Representative of the Church of Cyprus, Tasoula Georgiou-Hadjitofi (2000: 231) stated that the Archbishop of the Church of Cyprus and its Holy Synod 'approved the sum to be used to "buy [back]" these [stolen] works of art', and the General Secretary of the CPCHC, Maria Anagnostopoulou, acknowledged that the Republic of Cyprus (still) 'pays large sums to rescue cultural goods', 'astronomical sums' (2000: 25; 37).


Many of the stolen artifacts such as Byzantine icons are the possession of the the church and the Cypriot people. So trying to regain their priceless icons is the least they can do.

The RoC has a duty to preserve the inheritance of the Cypriot people. and since this is what they are doing, the Cypriot people are very thankful.

Still no proof about the inadvertent funding of the Grey Wolves I see.


Well, now you can follow the links above, especially the two about the Turkish Deep State controlling the heroin trade, and the antiquities trade being run by the same people who run the heroin trade.

It's a very long post, but you could also skip down to the Turkish and Cypriot stuff, in my discussion of the illicit antiquities trade through Cyprus.

Anagnostopoulou, M. 2000: "The looting of Cyprus". In Committee for the Protection of the Cultural Heritage of Cyprus, (Ed.). Cyprus: A civilization plundered, 22-41. Athens: The Hellenic Parliament.

Committee for the Preservation of the Cultural Heritage of Cyprus. 1985: "Cyprus - the plundering of a 9000-year-old civilization". In Committee for the Preservation of the Cultural Heritage of Cyprus, (Ed.). Cyprus - the plundering of a 9000 year-old civilization, 58-141. Athens: Academy of Athens.

Georgiou-Hadjitofi, T L. 2000: "Cyprus: The long return home". In Committee for the Protection of the Cultural Heritage of Cyprus, (Ed.). Cyprus: A civilization plundered, 222-235. Athens: The Hellenic Parliament.

Karageorghis, V. 2000: "The repatriation of Cypriot antiquities (1974-1997)". In Committee for the Protection of the Cultural Heritage of Cyprus, (Ed.). Cyprus: A civilization plundered, 214-221. Athens: The Hellenic Parliament.

Karageorghis, V. 2007: A lifetime in the archaeology of Cyprus: The memoirs of Vassos Karageorghis. Stockholm: Medelhavsmuseet.


Great...So the RoC, the Leventis Foundation, and the Church of Cyprus are trying to recover my inheritance.

No wonder I feel proud to be a Cypriot... :D


I have never criticised them for trying to repatriate looted antiquities.

I have only ever suggested they stop incidentally funding the people looting them.
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Postby Icarus » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:44 pm

Okay, see my other post, where I point out that the links you posted said that the Republic of Cyprus paid for stolen antiquities. So, if you had read them, you would have agreed with me, not accused me of having no evidence.


Of course the the RoC paid for these stolen antiquities.

How else are we going to recover our STOLEN inheritance?

Well, that was the same statement twice, but I know what you mean. Given your own sources say that the Republic of Cyprus buys looted antiquities (as do the Greek Cypriot sources I quoted in the post you replied to), I presume the evidence you want is for the Grey Wolves' (or, rather, the Turkish Deep State's) control of the antiquities trade.

The Turkish National Intelligence Organisation, MIT (or, more accurately, elements within MIT, the Turkish Deep State) control the heroin trade, and use the Grey Wolves.

The heroin smugglers are also the antiquities smugglers.

Which scary motherfuckers defeated the Turkish Deep State and took control of the antiquities trade? And, if someone else does run the antiquities trade, why do they let the Turkish Deep State continue to loot, smuggle and sell antiquities?


That does not surprise me at all.

The "TRNC" has been selling Greek Cypriot Antiquities. If the RoC does not buy these antiquities, then they will be bought by someone else.

So either way, it makes no difference.

The RoC is trying desperately to recover what is rightfully ours.

The big question is, what are the Turkish Cypriots doing to prevent The Turkish deep state from selling these antiquities?

Why blame the Turkish deep state, when in actual fact it the the TCs who are at the very least an accomplice and also benefiting from the illegal windfall?

"Ridiculous" was a reference to your statement that it was "ridiculous" to say the Republic of Cyprus had ever bought stolen antiquities.

"Ridiculous, but at the same time perfectly understandable" was a reference to you having said that the idea of the Republic of Cyprus buying stolen antiquities was ridiculous, but then saying that it had a right to do it and that money should be no object. (I.e. that it should do it, "it" being the thing you said was ridiculous.)


I did not say that the RoC never bought Cypriot stolen antiquities from the black market.

I know full well that it does.

What I said was that I'm unaware as to the extent of these efforts.

This is what I posted:

This is the most ridiculous statement.

Firstly, I am not sure as to the lengths the Republic of Cyprus is going to in order retrieve stolen antiquities and precious artifacts.

But if they are trying to buy their stolen artifacts, then I do not blame them. National heritage is a very important thing, and I am sure that many of these items are priceless to all Cypriots.


I fully endorse these efforts to regain our precious antiquities. These antiquities belong in a Cypriot museum.

I was referring to your assertion that the RoC was ionadvertantly funding the Grey Wolves as being ridiculous. So finally, we are on the same page.

Us bastards?

Oh! You think I'm Turkish. Of course. But no. I'm afraid it's even worse. I'm a Brit.

And, just to clarify, I'm also an archaeologist, who chose to come to Cyprus to work, because of its rich history.

And, to be even clearer, that's why the mafia and terrorists and extremists are looting and selling your history, because it's valuable. I'm trying to help you to stop them.

And my first piece of advice: stop giving them money.


I'm afraid it doesn't work that way.

If we stop giving them money, others will not. Our antiquities will never be recovered and we will lose our inheritance forever.

Collective guilt? Is that an ancient Greek principle? Blame the innocent because they speak the same language as the guilty? That's outrageous.


How innocent are they when their 'Minister of Agriculture" committed cold blooded murder.

Why won't the "TRNC" do something to preserve our antiquities?

Oh, you think I'm Turkish Cypriot. Still no.

And you may want to reconsider your policy of collective guilt, given what some Greek Cypriot ministers have done, while they had elected office, and after which they retained or regained elected office. Just a thought.


Who?

Tassos Pappadopoulos was part of the EOKA political wing. What does this have to do with the TCs when EOKA were fighting the British for self determination?

If you can find me just one EOKA B person, who was elected to office, then I will agree with you.

Am I still Turkish Cypriot, or am I Turkish again? Turkish Cypriots are not occupying anywhere. The Turkish Army is occupying northern Cyprus.


And what are the TCs doing about it? Absolutely nothing.

Not from the Grey Wolves; from the enclaved Turkish Cypriots. The enclaves were controlled by TMT; TMT profited from control of the enclaves.

And Turkish Cypriot antiquities smuggler Tremeseli Mehmet Ali Ilkman was a TMT fighter. I'm not saying the Republic of Cyprus bought antiquities from Ilkman. I'm saying that he's proof that TMT were involved in the antiquities trade, so when the RoC funded the antiquities trade, it would have been funding TMT, incidentally.


So how do we regain our valuable antiquities?

Let's say we did buy some of OUR antiquities from him. So what?

I don't see we have much choice in the matter. The Republic of Cyprus is doing the right thing by trying to recover Cypriot Antiquities sold on the black market.

First of all, TMT did not disband. It was reformed as the Turkish Cypriot Security Forces Command (Guvenlik Kuvvetleri Komutanligi (GKK)). And it was part of the Turkish Deep State anyway, so whether you talk about TMT antiquities smugglers or Turkish Deep State smugglers, it's the same gang.

Second of all, Tremeseli Mehmet Ali Ilkman was a TMT fighter and MIT (Turkish National Intelligence Organisation) officer, who was a key point in the illicit antiquities trade, both between 1963 and 1974 and afterwards. (Michael Jansen does discuss that in her book. This link shows he was still active recently. I'm afraid this link is dead, but it used to lead to an article called "History gushed out of Tremeseli's house".) Even when smugglers were no longer in TMT, their network was still a TMT/Turkish Deep State network.


What you say above is quite true.

But once again, what is the International Community doing to prevent the plunder of Greek Cypriot Antiquities?

If you want us to stop buying back what was stolen from us, then we need some assistance. Otherwise, our only option is to try and buy what rightfully belongs to us, or face the prospect of losing our priceless antiquities and artifacts forever.

Okay, let's try to spell it out:

Terrorists and paramilitaries fund their activities by looting and smuggling antiquities.

Terrorists' and paramilitaries' victims buy looted and smuggled antiquities.

Terrorists' and paramilitaries' victims fund terrorists' and paramilitaries' activities.

When Greek Cypriots buy antiquities looted and smuggled by the Turkish Deep State, they fund it; they pay for its bullets, and for its bombs.

More people in Britain, the Netherlands, Germany, etc. pay for more bullets and more bombs by buying heroin the Turkish Deep State has processed and smuggled through Turkey and northern Cyprus; but anyone paying money into a business run by the Turkish Deep State is incidentally funding it.


OK. Now we are starting to see eye to eye.

I agree with you here, but our nation is under occupation, and our history is being looted.

So how does the RoC stop this from happening? Unfortunately it can't. But what it can do is try to regain possession of our antiquities at the risk of funding these terrorists.

I never said he was not a humanitarian. I believe the Leventis Foundation is trying to do the right thing. I just think it doesn't understand the situation.


I'm sure the Leventis foundation does understand the situation, even better than you.

But it also understands the fact that we are left with no other choice.

Well, now you can follow the links above, especially the two about the Turkish Deep State controlling the heroin trade, and the antiquities trade being run by the same people who run the heroin trade.

It's a very long post, but you could also skip down to the Turkish and Cypriot stuff, in my discussion of the illicit antiquities trade through Cyprus.


Thank you for the links.

But I still don't see that we have any other option available to us.

Unless the International Community help us, we can only do what we are currently doing.

I have never criticised them for trying to repatriate looted antiquities.

I have only ever suggested they stop incidentally funding the people looting them.


Someone else will fund them instead.

Unfortunately, nothing will change.
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Postby samarkeolog » Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:19 pm

Icarus wrote:
Okay, see my other post, where I point out that the links you posted said that the Republic of Cyprus paid for stolen antiquities. So, if you had read them, you would have agreed with me, not accused me of having no evidence.


Of course the the RoC paid for these stolen antiquities.

How else are we going to recover our STOLEN inheritance?


Look, the more antiquities you buy off them, the more profit they make, the more antiquities they loot to sell to you. I know it's awful, but if you buy the stolen artefacts, they will steal more.

Well, that was the same statement twice, but I know what you mean. Given your own sources say that the Republic of Cyprus buys looted antiquities (as do the Greek Cypriot sources I quoted in the post you replied to), I presume the evidence you want is for the Grey Wolves' (or, rather, the Turkish Deep State's) control of the antiquities trade.

The Turkish National Intelligence Organisation, MIT (or, more accurately, elements within MIT, the Turkish Deep State) control the heroin trade, and use the Grey Wolves.

The heroin smugglers are also the antiquities smugglers.

Which scary motherfuckers defeated the Turkish Deep State and took control of the antiquities trade? And, if someone else does run the antiquities trade, why do they let the Turkish Deep State continue to loot, smuggle and sell antiquities?


That does not surprise me at all.

The "TRNC" has been selling Greek Cypriot Antiquities.


No, it hasn't.

And by the way, you provided no evidence.

Greek Cypriot sources may say "Turkey" or "the TRNC" is to blame; but it is elements within the Turkish state, elements within the TRNC. It is the Turkish Deep State. It is important to acknowledge the difference. The Turkish State does not control the Turkish Deep State. The Turkish State fights against the Turkish Deep State. Blame the Turkish Deep State, please; but don't blame its victims and enemies.

If the RoC does not buy these antiquities, then they will be bought by someone else.

So either way, it makes no difference.

The RoC is trying desperately to recover what is rightfully ours.

The big question is, what are the Turkish Cypriots doing to prevent The Turkish deep state from selling these antiquities?

Why blame the Turkish deep state, when in actual fact it the the TCs who are at the very least an accomplice and also benefiting from the illegal windfall?


The Turkish Cypriots don't benefit from the profits; that goes to and stays with the criminals.

If you want to blame the Turkish Cypriots because the criminals spend their money in Turkish Cypriot shops, why don't you blame the Greek Cypriots for giving them the money to spend?

The Turkish Cypriots would have a better chance of resisting the Turkish Deep State if it weren't so well-funded and well-armed...

"Ridiculous" was a reference to your statement that it was "ridiculous" to say the Republic of Cyprus had ever bought stolen antiquities.

"Ridiculous, but at the same time perfectly understandable" was a reference to you having said that the idea of the Republic of Cyprus buying stolen antiquities was ridiculous, but then saying that it had a right to do it and that money should be no object. (I.e. that it should do it, "it" being the thing you said was ridiculous.)


I did not say that the RoC never bought Cypriot stolen antiquities from the black market.

I know full well that it does.

What I said was that I'm unaware as to the extent of these efforts.

This is what I posted:

This is the most ridiculous statement.

Firstly, I am not sure as to the lengths the Republic of Cyprus is going to in order retrieve stolen antiquities and precious artifacts.

But if they are trying to buy their stolen artifacts, then I do not blame them. National heritage is a very important thing, and I am sure that many of these items are priceless to all Cypriots.


I fully endorse these efforts to regain our precious antiquities. These antiquities belong in a Cypriot museum.

I was referring to your assertion that the RoC was ionadvertantly funding the Grey Wolves as being ridiculous.


Yeah, I realised that after I posted but you replied first. Sorry. Anyway, let's get back to arguing. :lol:

So finally, we are on the same page.

Us bastards?

Oh! You think I'm Turkish. Of course. But no. I'm afraid it's even worse. I'm a Brit.

And, just to clarify, I'm also an archaeologist, who chose to come to Cyprus to work, because of its rich history.

And, to be even clearer, that's why the mafia and terrorists and extremists are looting and selling your history, because it's valuable. I'm trying to help you to stop them.

And my first piece of advice: stop giving them money.


I'm afraid it doesn't work that way.

If we stop giving them money, others will not. Our antiquities will never be recovered and we will lose our inheritance forever.

Collective guilt? Is that an ancient Greek principle? Blame the innocent because they speak the same language as the guilty? That's outrageous.


How innocent are they when their 'Minister of Agriculture" committed cold blooded murder.


My state has an elected government (though I did not vote for the party in power). It has invaded two countries and interfered in others in the time that I have been voting; but I am not responsible for my government's actions. I complained. I protested. What more did I have to do? Hold a coup...?

The Turkish Cypriots had protests of 80,000 people. The U.S. has never had a protest of 120 million; Britain has never had a protest of 24 million. When was the last Greek Cypriot protest of 240,000 people?

Why won't the "TRNC" do something to preserve our antiquities?


The TRNC does try to do what it can; but all of the Turkish Cypriot police is controlled by the Turkish occupation; and the Turkish occupation is run by the Turkish military, or the Turkish deep state. The Turkish government doesn't control the occupation.

Plus, neither side will work with the other. The RoC refuses to work with the TRNC just as much as the TRNC refuses to work with the RoC.

Oh, you think I'm Turkish Cypriot. Still no.

And you may want to reconsider your policy of collective guilt, given what some Greek Cypriot ministers have done, while they had elected office, and after which they retained or regained elected office. Just a thought.


Who?

Tassos Pappadopoulos was part of the EOKA political wing. What does this have to do with the TCs when EOKA were fighting the British for self determination?

If you can find me just one EOKA B person, who was elected to office, then I will agree with you.


What about EOKA's murders of civilians? What about Akritas's murders, its destruction? Georgadjis, Papadopoulos, Clerides, Makarios...?

Am I still Turkish Cypriot, or am I Turkish again? Turkish Cypriots are not occupying anywhere. The Turkish Army is occupying northern Cyprus.


And what are the TCs doing about it? Absolutely nothing.


What would you like the entirely unarmed, even-smaller-than-the-Greek-Cypriot community to do? If the RoC couldn't defeat the Turkish Army, how the fuck do you propose the Turkish Cypriot community does?

Not from the Grey Wolves; from the enclaved Turkish Cypriots. The enclaves were controlled by TMT; TMT profited from control of the enclaves.

And Turkish Cypriot antiquities smuggler Tremeseli Mehmet Ali Ilkman was a TMT fighter. I'm not saying the Republic of Cyprus bought antiquities from Ilkman. I'm saying that he's proof that TMT were involved in the antiquities trade, so when the RoC funded the antiquities trade, it would have been funding TMT, incidentally.


So how do we regain our valuable antiquities?

Let's say we did buy some of OUR antiquities from him. So what?

I don't see we have much choice in the matter. The Republic of Cyprus is doing the right thing by trying to recover Cypriot Antiquities sold on the black market.

First of all, TMT did not disband. It was reformed as the Turkish Cypriot Security Forces Command (Guvenlik Kuvvetleri Komutanligi (GKK)). And it was part of the Turkish Deep State anyway, so whether you talk about TMT antiquities smugglers or Turkish Deep State smugglers, it's the same gang.

Second of all, Tremeseli Mehmet Ali Ilkman was a TMT fighter and MIT (Turkish National Intelligence Organisation) officer, who was a key point in the illicit antiquities trade, both between 1963 and 1974 and afterwards. (Michael Jansen does discuss that in her book. This link shows he was still active recently. I'm afraid this link is dead, but it used to lead to an article called "History gushed out of Tremeseli's house".) Even when smugglers were no longer in TMT, their network was still a TMT/Turkish Deep State network.


What you say above is quite true.

But once again, what is the International Community doing to prevent the plunder of Greek Cypriot Antiquities?

If you want us to stop buying back what was stolen from us, then we need some assistance. Otherwise, our only option is to try and buy what rightfully belongs to us, or face the prospect of losing our priceless antiquities and artifacts forever.

Okay, let's try to spell it out:

Terrorists and paramilitaries fund their activities by looting and smuggling antiquities.

Terrorists' and paramilitaries' victims buy looted and smuggled antiquities.

Terrorists' and paramilitaries' victims fund terrorists' and paramilitaries' activities.

When Greek Cypriots buy antiquities looted and smuggled by the Turkish Deep State, they fund it; they pay for its bullets, and for its bombs.

More people in Britain, the Netherlands, Germany, etc. pay for more bullets and more bombs by buying heroin the Turkish Deep State has processed and smuggled through Turkey and northern Cyprus; but anyone paying money into a business run by the Turkish Deep State is incidentally funding it.


OK. Now we are starting to see eye to eye.

I agree with you here, but our nation is under occupation, and our history is being looted.

So how does the RoC stop this from happening? Unfortunately it can't. But what it can do is try to regain possession of our antiquities at the risk of funding these terrorists.

I never said he was not a humanitarian. I believe the Leventis Foundation is trying to do the right thing. I just think it doesn't understand the situation.


I'm sure the Leventis foundation does understand the situation, even better than you.

But it also understands the fact that we are left with no other choice.


If the Leventis Foundation knows its incidentally funding the destruction of Cypriot cultural heritage, I would be very disappointed.

Well, now you can follow the links above, especially the two about the Turkish Deep State controlling the heroin trade, and the antiquities trade being run by the same people who run the heroin trade.

It's a very long post, but you could also skip down to the Turkish and Cypriot stuff, in my discussion of the illicit antiquities trade through Cyprus.


Thank you for the links.

But I still don't see that we have any other option available to us.

Unless the International Community help us, we can only do what we are currently doing.

I have never criticised them for trying to repatriate looted antiquities.

I have only ever suggested they stop incidentally funding the people looting them.


Someone else will fund them instead.

Unfortunately, nothing will change.


Well, the international community does try to help. And looters know they cannot sell big or famous things on the market, because they know they will be caught. They take the big and famous things expecting the Republic of Cyprus or the Church of Cyprus to buy them. But still, other stuff will get stolen, yes. I don't expect anything much to change.

The situation is fucked.

[Edited to correct typos.]
samarkeolog
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