Okay. Let's take this step-by-step, shall we?
Icarus wrote: samarkeolog wrote: Icarus wrote:
samarkeolog wrote: Icarus wrote: samarkeolog wrote:
Get Real! wrote:The Turkish Cypriots should be given an ultimatum to repair all the churches within a reasonable period of time or Tekke turned into a pig sty.
Fair & square is the way I like it…
Fair and square: the Greek Cypriots should also be given the same amount of time to repair all of the mosques. But what will they do about the ones they razed to the ground?
I presume you want the Turkish Cypriots to rebuild the Church of Panagia Apagou in Khelones
and the Church of Agia Katerina in Gerani
So, presumably, the Greek Cypriots should also rebuild the mosques in Kidasi, Phalia, Goshi, Ktima Paphos, Deneia, Flasou, Korakou, Loukrounou, Fasli, Magounda...? (And I list those mosques because they're the ones documented by the bicommunal Cyprus Temples
project, so you can't dismiss it as propaganda.)
What deadline would you like?
Presenting only one community as the victim is untrue and unhelpful. Nationalist extremists on both sides have destroyed lives and communities. If you don't acknowledge that and do something about it, you will never rescue your country, or even your community, because extremism will thrive and innocent individuals and communities will continue to suffer. If you want your churches repaired, why don't you consider a paired project - repair one church, repair one mosque?
If you continue to tell the other community to repair your churches while you leave their mosques to decay, and when you have destroyed so many mosques that are now not ruins, but archaeological sites under the soil, you will achieve nothing.
I have seen many mosques in the Republic of Cyprus in a very good state of repair. I can't say the same about Greek Orthodox Churches and cemeteries.How much time is required recovering all Cypriot Antiquities and Byzantine Icons?http://www.savingantiquities.org/featur ... sicons.phphttp://www.greeknewsonline.com/modules. ... t&sid=4964http://www.museum-security.org/cyprus-a ... n-rijn.htmhttp://www.nytimes.com/1998/04/01/world ... wanted=allhttp://www.hri.org/Cyprus/Cyprus_Proble ... tion2.htmlhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1768274.stm
Less time would be required if the Republic of Cyprus did not buy back stolen antiquities from the market. A lot of the money goes to the Grey Wolves and the Turkish Deep State and bankrolls their continued looting and destruction.
This is the most ridiculous statement.
So you've researched it yourself, have you?
Yes I have researched it.
Okay, see my other post, where I point out that the links you posted
said that the Republic of Cyprus paid for stolen antiquities. So, if you had read them, you would have agreed with me, not accused me of having no evidence.
You stated that the RoC is funding the Grey Wolves thus making the ludicrous assertion that the RoC is inadvertently funding the Grey Wolves.
Where is you the evidence?
Well, that was the same statement twice, but I know what you mean. Given your own sources say that the Republic of Cyprus buys looted antiquities (as do the Greek Cypriot sources I quoted in the post you replied to), I presume the evidence you want is for the Grey Wolves' (or, rather, the Turkish Deep State's) control of the antiquities trade.
The Turkish National Intelligence Organisation, MIT (or, more accurately, elements within MIT, the Turkish Deep State) control the heroin trade
, and use the Grey Wolves.The heroin smugglers are also the antiquities smugglers.
Which scary motherfuckers defeated the Turkish Deep State and took control of the antiquities trade? And, if someone else does run the antiquities trade, why do they let the Turkish Deep State continue to loot, smuggle and sell antiquities?
In any case, the RoC has every right to try and regain my lost inheritance from the black market. Money is absolutely no object in this instance.
There is absolutely no evidence to prove your sweeping statement that the RoC is inadvertently funding the Grey Wolves.
Your the one making these claims, and so it is YOU who should do your research and prove to us that what you say is accurate...
Ridiculous, but at the same time perfectly understandable... A very Cypriot situation.
If the Grey Wolves (who, lest you forget, beat Greek Cypriots to death) loot Cypriot antiquities, and the Republic of Cyprus buys them... who profits?
Perhaps you should criticise, or at least question, the Republic.
How is this ridiculous?
"Ridiculous" was a reference to your statement that it was "ridiculous" to say the Republic of Cyprus had ever bought stolen antiquities.
"Ridiculous, but at the same time perfectly understandable" was a reference to you having said that the idea of the Republic of Cyprus buying stolen antiquities was ridiculous, but then saying that it had a right to do it and that money should be no object. (I.e. that it should
do it, "it" being the thing you said was ridiculous.)
Cypriots have a very rich history and you bastards are destroying our inheritance.
Oh! You think I'm Turkish. Of course. But no. I'm afraid it's even worse. I'm a Brit.
And, just to clarify, I'm also an archaeologist, who chose to come to Cyprus to work, because
of its rich history.
And, to be even clearer, that's why the mafia and terrorists and extremists are looting and selling your history, because it's valuable. I'm trying to help you to stop them.
And my first piece of advice: stop giving them money.
Of course we are going to do everything we can to prevent the destruction of our heritage, because once these artifacts are gone, theey are gone forever.
I know all about the Grey Wolves. By just blaming the Grey Wolves for the deaths of ISAAC and SOLOMOU is outrageous.
The "TRNC Minister of Agriculture" killed Solomou, and therefore the Grey Wolves can not be blamed. All Turkish Cypriots are to blame.
Collective guilt? Is that an ancient Greek principle? Blame the innocent because they speak the same language as the guilty? That
When your "elected" minister pulled that trigger, every TC was pulling the trigger with him. And the fact that this criminal walks free and will be a part of the new "Eroglu Government" speaks volumes about your terrorist "state-let".http://www.argyrosargyrou.fsnet.co.uk/Solomou.htm
Oh, you think I'm Turkish Cypriot
. Still no.
And you may want to reconsider your policy of collective guilt, given what some Greek Cypriot ministers have done, while they had elected office, and after which they retained or regained elected office. Just a thought.
I do not criticise the RoC. I can only try and assist the RoC in its quest for liberation, if I can. It is the RoC which faces the continued injustice of your occupation, and so whatever the RoC decides to do, is justified in its own quest for salvation.
Am I still Turkish Cypriot, or am I Turkish again? Turkish Cypriots are not occupying anywhere. The Turkish Army is occupying northern Cyprus.
Unfortunately, it's not ridiculous; tragically, it's fact.
Then provide us with your evidence. Just because YOU state it is a fact does not make it so.
And in any case, I would be disappointed
if the RoC did not do everything in its power to regain my inheritance.
In his autobiography, then antiquities director Vassos Karageorghis said that, already,
During the period from 1970 to 1974, under the pretext of supervising the work of the UNESCO experts at St. Sophia, I would often cross the "border" in the car of [UNESCO conservator Dr.] Carlo Musso.... I bought for the Cyprus Museum a good number of important objects ['illegal antiquities'].... I did not pay cash... I would bring them a government cheque from the Central Bank (2007: 102-103).
And how does the above prove that the RoC was buying these STOLEN artifacts from the Grey Wolves?
Not from the Grey Wolves; from the enclaved Turkish Cypriots. The enclaves were controlled by TMT; TMT profited from control of the enclaves.
And Turkish Cypriot antiquities smuggler Tremeseli Mehmet Ali Ilkman was a TMT fighter. I'm not saying the Republic of Cyprus bought antiquities from Ilkman.
I'm saying that he's proof that TMT were involved in the antiquities trade, so when the RoC funded the antiquities trade, it would have been funding TMT, incidentally
Now, Greek Cypriots do accept that TMT controlled the enclaves, don't they? So, they do accept that some of the profit from looting and trading in the enclaves would have gone to TMT, don't they? If not, I can provide other proof...
The TMT disbanded in 1974. So how could it have been responsible for all the looting in Cyprus when most of the looting was done AFTER the second Turkish offensive. Stolen artifacts are sold on the black market to this very day. Is the TMT still to blame?
First of all, TMT did not disband. It was reformed as the Turkish Cypriot Security Forces Command (Guvenlik Kuvvetleri Komutanligi (GKK)). And it was part of the Turkish Deep State anyway, so whether you talk about TMT antiquities smugglers or Turkish Deep State smugglers, it's the same gang.
Second of all, Tremeseli Mehmet Ali Ilkman was a TMT
fighter and MIT
(Turkish National Intelligence Organisation) officer, who was a key point in the illicit antiquities trade, both between 1963 and 1974 and afterwards. (Michael Jansen does discuss that in her book. This link
shows he was still active recently. I'm afraid this link
is dead, but it used to lead to an article called "History gushed out of Tremeseli's house".) Even when smugglers were no longer in
TMT, their network was still a TMT/Turkish Deep State network.
Once again you make these sweeping statements with no evidence.
Then, since the Turkish invasion of 1974 (when the Turkish Deep State and the Grey Wolves controlled the looting and smuggling of antiquities in northern Cyprus)...
Even if this was the case, how can anyone blame the RoC from doing anything possible to regain the inheritance of all Cypriots?You make absolutely no sense....
Okay, let's try to spell it out:
Terrorists and paramilitaries fund their activities by looting and smuggling antiquities.
Terrorists' and paramilitaries' victims buy looted and smuggled antiquities.
Terrorists' and paramilitaries' victims fund terrorists' and paramilitaries' activities.
When Greek Cypriots buy antiquities looted and smuggled by the Turkish Deep State, they fund it; they pay for its bullets, and for its bombs.More
people in Britain, the Netherlands, Germany, etc. pay for more
bullets and more
bombs by buying heroin the Turkish Deep State has processed and smuggled through Turkey and northern Cyprus; but anyone
paying money into a business run by the Turkish Deep State is incidentally funding it.
The Committee for the Preservation of the Cultural Heritage of Cyprus stated that,
The Government of Cyprus, together with... the Leventis Foundation, had to pay high prices to foreign auction houses for the purchase of the stolen treasures belonging to the people of Cyprus (1985: 69).
The Leventis Foundation is always doing many good things for Cyprus. Mr. Leventis was a true humanitarian...
I thank him for all his efforts and for donating lots of money so that the Cypriots can regain their inheritance.
I never said he was not
a humanitarian. I believe the Leventis Foundation is trying to do the right thing. I just think it doesn't understand the situation.
Thank you Mr. Leventis!
In another CPCHC book, Karageorghis noted that,
Since 1974 many Cypriot antiquities stolen... have been bought by the A.G. Leventis Foundation and donated to the Cyprus Museum’ (Karageorghis, 2000: 218).
(And Karageorghis often, if not always, solicited that funding.)
Honorary Consul of Cyprus in the Hague, and Cultural Representative of the Church of Cyprus, Tasoula Georgiou-Hadjitofi (2000: 231) stated that the Archbishop of the Church of Cyprus and its Holy Synod 'approved the sum to be used to "buy [back]" these [stolen] works of art', and the General Secretary of the CPCHC, Maria Anagnostopoulou, acknowledged that the Republic of Cyprus (still) 'pays large sums to rescue cultural goods', 'astronomical sums' (2000: 25; 37).
Many of the stolen artifacts such as Byzantine icons are the possession of the the church and the Cypriot people. So trying to regain their priceless icons is the least
they can do.
The RoC has a duty to preserve the inheritance of the Cypriot people. and since this is what they are doing, the Cypriot people are very thankful.Still no proof about the inadvertent funding of the Grey Wolves I see.
Well, now you can follow the links above, especially the two about the Turkish Deep State controlling the heroin trade, and the antiquities trade being run by the same people who run the heroin trade.
It's a very long post, but you could also skip down to the Turkish and Cypriot stuff, in my discussion of the illicit antiquities trade through Cyprus
Anagnostopoulou, M. 2000: "The looting of Cyprus". In Committee for the Protection of the Cultural Heritage of Cyprus, (Ed.). Cyprus: A civilization plundered, 22-41. Athens: The Hellenic Parliament.
Committee for the Preservation of the Cultural Heritage of Cyprus. 1985: "Cyprus - the plundering of a 9000-year-old civilization". In Committee for the Preservation of the Cultural Heritage of Cyprus, (Ed.). Cyprus - the plundering of a 9000 year-old civilization, 58-141. Athens: Academy of Athens.
Georgiou-Hadjitofi, T L. 2000: "Cyprus: The long return home". In Committee for the Protection of the Cultural Heritage of Cyprus, (Ed.). Cyprus: A civilization plundered, 222-235. Athens: The Hellenic Parliament.
Karageorghis, V. 2000: "The repatriation of Cypriot antiquities (1974-1997)". In Committee for the Protection of the Cultural Heritage of Cyprus, (Ed.). Cyprus: A civilization plundered, 214-221. Athens: The Hellenic Parliament.
Karageorghis, V. 2007: A lifetime in the archaeology of Cyprus: The memoirs of Vassos Karageorghis. Stockholm: Medelhavsmuseet.
Great...So the RoC, the Leventis Foundation, and the Church of Cyprus are trying to recover my inheritance.
No wonder I feel proud to be a Cypriot...
I have never criticised them for trying to repatriate looted antiquities.
I have only ever suggested they stop incidentally funding the people looting them.