ENOSIS, Again?
| Is ENOSIS a right of Greek Cypriots? |
| Yes |
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25% |
[ 2 ] |
| No |
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75% |
[ 6 ] |
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| Total Votes : 8 |
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 Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 12:29 am |
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| Piratis |
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| Joined: 09 Mar 2004 |
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| Quote: |
| My point is that if we try to resolve future without agreeing why we have problem in the first place we will continue to see solutions which only suit our own view of history. |
Yes, if we agree about the past that would be better. The problem is that it is a very big "if". I've seen countless discussions about our history and most of them result in more hate instead of an agreement. If I didn't have such experiences I would take your proposal much more positively.
| Quote: |
| As the problems politically began in the 1950s I suggest then. |
Well, it depends on what is a "problem" for you. Cypriots have been under the British and before under the Ottomans. For you this might not be a problem, but for Greek Cypriots apparently it was. The events of the 50s didn't appear out of the blue. So we can start from the 50s, but we should also keep in mind how we got there. |
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 4:36 pm |
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| michalis5354 |
| lecturer |
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| Joined: 31 Aug 2003 |
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What is the problem for example for anyone to admit , Yes this happened but it was wrong! Germans also admit that to kill innocent Jews was wrong but It happened.
Also Politicians should have this courage try to analyse these events and say this was Right but this was wrong! No one CAN ALWAYS BE RIGHT. Unless he / she is a GOD. And we are neither god or Angels!
I agree with Turker above that the Enosis idea created all these problems. And Judging upon its consequences it was wrong! |
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:10 pm |
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| mehmet |
| instructor |
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| Joined: 02 Apr 2004 |
| Posts: 518 |
| Location: hastings, UK (family from Komi Kebir & Lourijina) |
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the 'problem' as I define it is the issue of inter ethnic conflict and the beginning of division. There are problems in all areas of the past, but the problems I am particularly concerned to address is the one that led to separation. If anyone believe that what occurred in 1800s (for example) I would be interested to see how it links. What appears universal in Cyprus history is that it's location at the crossroads of Christian, Jewish and Islamic world has been the cause of why it has been occupied by different ethnic groups. This seems as true in the times of the Crusades as it does post Suez. What I suggest is that we cover each period one by one, completing one before the other. I would suggest we cover the subject in 4 sections.
1) British colony (up to 1960)
2) Independence (1960-3)
3) Constituitional crisis (1963-74)
4) Ethnic division (1974-)
I choose labels deliberately to avoid implying blame for any group. What I am going to suggest is that we try to spend a week for each period and that we begin on Monday. Between now and Monday we can finalise the process if people have alternative suggestions as to how to proceed. |
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:22 pm |
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| Piratis |
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There is always a link between older and newer events. For example somebody could say that for him/her the problem starts with the Ottomans since before that the one of the two communities that later created the ethnic conflict did not exist. This might sound a bit extreme, but the truth is that nothing happens out of the blue, and some of the problems have very deep roots.
About the process:
I suggest we brake up each period into small subjects and discuss them separately. These small subjects can run concurrently.
For example for the “British Colony” period we could discuss in separate threads things like “The importance of Cyprus for the British”, “early enosis demands (1930s and before)”, “EOKA 1955-59”, “Crimes committed using the enosis cause as an excuse”, “Turkey’s demands”, “The British policies and actions”, “Greek nationalism”, “Turkish nationalism” etc. |
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:31 pm |
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| mehmet |
| instructor |
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| Joined: 02 Apr 2004 |
| Posts: 518 |
| Location: hastings, UK (family from Komi Kebir & Lourijina) |
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| sounds ok to me but can you provide a complete list and sequence and some idea of time scale? |
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:31 pm |
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| mehmet |
| instructor |
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| Joined: 02 Apr 2004 |
| Posts: 518 |
| Location: hastings, UK (family from Komi Kebir & Lourijina) |
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| By the way what does anyone else think? |
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:56 am |
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| john |
| new member |
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| Joined: 10 Jul 2004 |
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| mehmet wrote: |
| By the way what does anyone else think? |
Well, is it necessary to go through this exercise? We definitely need to understand our past so that we can build the future, but I think the argument will be endless (as it has been thus far). Or does anybody think that the answer to "whose fault was it?" will be clear-cut?
I think - or at least I want to believe - that people in this forum understand that to the making of our history both sides "contributed" in their own way. And that we distant ourselves from the - simplistic - approach that we learn at school:
1. For the GCs the cyprus problem is a problem of Turkish invasion and continuing occupation, the TCs retaliation in 1963, the drama of missing persons and the thousands of refugees. Added to that is the intransigence of the TC side to negotiate in good will.
2. For the TCs the cyprus problem is a result of the GC enosis quest, the 1963 Kanlı Noel, the refugees and the missing persons. The 1974 peace operation by Turkey saved the TCs from what happened to others in Taskent etc.
These are very simplistic, one-sided approaches, and I'm sure many will agree.
On the other hand this is a time when we should be thinking about the future. The times are not simple. History is not the past, history is actually happening now. Personally, I'd rather talk about what we do so that permanent division is avoided. We need to understand why the olympic flag didn't make it to the north. We need to understand why the EU thinks that with the measures it is proposing it is actually promoting the reunification rather than destroying every hope. For those, of course, that still believe in reunification. |
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:35 am |
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| Piratis |
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| Quote: |
| I think the argument will be endless (as it has been thus far). |
I agree. Both sides have done mistakes and crimes during our history, and only very closed minded people can not see that.
The difference between Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots is that for Turkish Cypriots the actions of some Greek Cypriots in the past can be an excuse for the occupation in 2004, or that those actions more than 30 years ago give them the right to have demands that restrict the democratic and basic human rights of Greek Cypriots.
Personally I believe that the harm caused by Turks to Greeks on this island during our history far out weights the harm caused by Greeks to Turks. However, even if Turkish Cypriots do not share this opinion, they have to understand that we should try to stop harming each other now and create a democratic state that respects human rights. Otherwise, sooner or later the "circle of blood" will continue. |
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 1:04 pm |
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| PEACE |
| instructor |
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| Joined: 22 Nov 2003 |
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| Location: Lefke,Cyprus |
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| Quote: |
| Personally I believe that the harm caused by Turks to Greeks on this island during our history far out weights the harm caused by Greeks to Turks. |
May be you have to remember genocides in Atlılar,Muratağa,Sandallar villages.We are tried to be cleaned completely from this island.If Junta of Greece and EOKA-B couldn't be successfull this never means you'll forget it when calculating the amount of harm.
I beleive we harmed to each other equal.
| Quote: |
| create a democratic state that respects human rights. |
This new order must protect us from Greek Cypriot dominance! |
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:32 pm |
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| Piratis |
| Moderator |
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| Joined: 09 Mar 2004 |
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| PEACE, you can take some insidents and magnify them as much as you want. But it will be crazy to claim that any such events can balance the centuries of Ottoman rule, and the invasion/ocupation of 1/3rd of Cyprus for 30 years. |
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