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Poll for GC - Turkish recognition of RoC

Benefits and problems from the EU membership.

Is recognition a red line pre requisit for GC for start of Turkish entry process

yes
8
47%
no
9
53%
 
Total votes : 17

Postby fi » Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:13 pm

erolz wrote: We tried this in 65 btw and were told


Although I don't agree that this was the entire truth, the GC have moved forward. Take note that throughout history all young democracies faced many problems, take Spain for example!!!! Few years of democracy then the king then democracy then civil war!

I think the TC should move forward in their ideas.
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Postby Piratis » Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:48 pm

From a TC perspective demanding that Turkey recognises the RoC as it exits today (not as it exited in 1960 agreements) is asking her to condone and legitimise the biggest 'illegality' against the TCr, comitted by the rest of the world (rest of the world = non aligned states + afew others) against all moral and legal imperatives. Namely the recognition by the 'UN' of the purely GC adminstration of the RoC as the sole and legtitmate governbment of all of Cyprus.


Well, I am sorry I can not express my self as I should when some shameless people that support the ethnic cleansing of 200.000 people and the stealing of land that belonged to GCs for 3500 years come to claim that the biggest illegality is that their illegal actions were not accepted!

Anyways, if turkey doesn't comply we will send her packing to Islam.
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Postby Viewpoint » Thu Aug 04, 2005 10:05 pm

Piratis wrote:
From a TC perspective demanding that Turkey recognises the RoC as it exits today (not as it exited in 1960 agreements) is asking her to condone and legitimise the biggest 'illegality' against the TCr, comitted by the rest of the world (rest of the world = non aligned states + afew others) against all moral and legal imperatives. Namely the recognition by the 'UN' of the purely GC adminstration of the RoC as the sole and legtitmate governbment of all of Cyprus.


Well, I am sorry I can not express my self as I should when some shameless people that support the ethnic cleansing of 200.000 people and the stealing of land that belonged to GCs for 3500 years come to claim that the biggest illegality is that their illegal actions were not accepted!

Anyways, if turkey doesn't comply we will send her packing to Islam.


Go for it, let see the end result, what do you think will happen to the Cyprus issue if you sent Turkey packing???
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Postby Piratis » Thu Aug 04, 2005 10:17 pm

Go for it, let see the end result, what do you think will happen to the Cyprus issue if you sent Turkey packing???


We will see.
If we send Turkey packing two things will happen:
1) Their economy will start going downhill again
2)Nationalists and Islamists with anti-EU feelings will take power

From there a possible scenario is this:
With some smart support the fanatic Islamists can gain the power, and thats when the balance of power will be shifted.

Turkey is a torn country. Not exactly European, not exactly Islamist. Their friends are countries that are her friends just because of their interests. Just see how fast the US/UK turned against Bin Laden and Saddam Husein. Until a point US/UK were their biggest friends.

If Turkey is pushed in Islam thats the beginning of the end for Turkey as we know it today. It will brake up into parts.
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Postby Viewpoint » Thu Aug 04, 2005 10:20 pm

Piratis wrote:
Go for it, let see the end result, what do you think will happen to the Cyprus issue if you sent Turkey packing???


We will see.
If we send Turkey packing two things will happen:
1) Their economy will start going downhill again
2)Nationalists and Islamists with anti-EU feelings will take power

From there a possible scenario is this:
With some smart support the fanatic Islamists can gain the power, and thats when the balance of power will be shifted.

Turkey is a torn country. Not exactly European, not exactly Islamist. Their friends are countries that are her friends just because of their interests. Just see how fast the US/UK turned against Bin Laden and Saddam Husein. Until a point US/UK were their biggest friends.

If Turkey is pushed in Islam thats the beginning of the end for Turkey as we know it today. It will brake up into parts.


Besides all the BS above you didnt answer the real question what will happen to Cyprus issue??
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Postby erolz » Thu Aug 04, 2005 10:31 pm

Once again as far as I am concerned what starts as a reasonable and reasoned discussion descends into the 'twilight zone' :(

Allthough its hard to know what the point is I will just correct a couple of your misconceptions

Piratis wrote:
Well, I am sorry I can not express my self as I should when some shameless people that support the ethnic cleansing of 200.000 people and the stealing of land that belonged to GCs for 3500 years


I do not support what happened to GC in 74. I accept the reality that it happened. I accept that the causes that led to it happening were not the fault of TC or Turkey alone but also of GC and Greece. I accpet that we should make every effort to reverse the effects or compensate those GC that were victims of this event but not in a freamwork of this being the only thing we need to do, but in one that also accepts that we have to solve it as part of a package of solving all the issues that led upto this unfortunate event in the first place.

Piratis wrote:
come to claim that the biggest illegality is that their illegal actions were not accepted!


I said it was the biggest illegality against TC as percieved by TC. The percieved illegality from a TC perspective was the 'recognition' of a purely GC run RoC as the sole legitiamate goverment of all of Cyprus and all Cypriots, not that there was susbesqently no recognition of the TRNC.

Piratis wrote:
Anyways, if turkey doesn't comply we will send her packing to Islam.


Why does this statment sound so hauntingly familure to me?
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Postby -mikkie2- » Fri Aug 05, 2005 1:21 am

We tried this in 65 btw and were told that we would only be allowed to do so (by GC admin) if we accepted without any neogitation all of Makrios' 'proposed' 13 ammendments to the consitituion.


I bet you if the TC's demanded this now the GC's would welcome you with open arms. Providing of course that Turkey removes her troops from Cyprus and we come to some reasonable and amicable agreement with what to do with the settlers and property.

Erol, the 1960 constitution is still valid. The TC's may perceive that it has changed but it has not. Its basic provisions are unchanged because it required the consent of both communitieas. As Alexandros has stated in the past, we look upon ourselves as the guardians of the RoC, until such time the Turkish Cypriots wish to return to it.

You will find that as time goes on your interests will be better served by coming back to it that by relying on Turkey. THe Greeks have already abandoned the GC's. There will come a time when Turkey will do the same to the TC's.
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Postby Viewpoint » Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:00 am

-mikkie2- wrote:
We tried this in 65 btw and were told that we would only be allowed to do so (by GC admin) if we accepted without any neogitation all of Makrios' 'proposed' 13 ammendments to the consitituion.


I bet you if the TC's demanded this now the GC's would welcome you with open arms. Providing of course that Turkey removes her troops from Cyprus and we come to some reasonable and amicable agreement with what to do with the settlers and property.


In otherwords solve the Cyprus issue by doing everything that GCs want, throw out the troops and settlers, return all property and accept and return to 1960 agreements.
This is not just unacceptable to TCs, psychologically going back to era in our history that we would noway want to revive would be catastrophic. Why cant you understand this?? the whole idea of the virgin birth is what TCs want we get rid of "RoC" and TRNC to wipe away the past and start a new as a united Cyprus.

the 1960 constitution is still valid


For who?? GCs not us why cant you understand that the "RoC" no longer represents us and that you have an empty constitution/structure/caretaker with only 70% of it full, you will never be able to fill the remaining 30% because TCs want nothing to do with agreements that were not met and destroyed for whatever reasons back in 1963, we have been there done it, it doesnt work, there is a new state of play you have to move forward and concentrate on building a new united Cyprus.

As Alexandros has stated in the past, we look upon ourselves as the guardians of the RoC, until such time the Turkish Cypriots wish to return to it.



You will wait forever....

You will find that as time goes on your interests will be better served by coming back to it that by relying on Turkey


Whos interests?? yours?? isnt it a matter of better the devil you know or are used to?? our history has proven we cannot function together thats why there is no trust, this reflects in which seems as extreem demands from the TCs side, this is just a safeguard against Gcs ever attempting to take control of the whole island and TCs not being reduced to minority status in their own lands.

THe Greeks have already abandoned the GC's. There will come a time when Turkey will do the same to the TC's.


I totally disagree you relations with Greece have never been on a level as ours is with Turkey and on the eve of Turkey taking steps to protect TRNC against EU by not recognizing the south doesnt this prove her commitment to the TC people? imo she will never abandon the TCs until we want to let go.....do you feel uncomfortable with this relationship?? do you wish we had the same close link with the GC community?? then ask yourselves why not us......your response would be very interesting.
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Postby -mikkie2- » Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:46 am

imo she will never abandon the TCs


There is one thing I have learned in life and that is to never say never!

The TC's must take control of their own destiny before it is too late!
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Postby Viewpoint » Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:01 am

-mikkie2- wrote:
imo she will never abandon the TCs


There is one thing I have learned in life and that is to never say never!

The TC's must take control of their own destiny before it is too late!


You may have a point there....TC can only take control of their own destiny if they control the purse strings and to this we need to build our economy and gain the freedom to control our own destiny but if we have isolation and ar enot allowed to develop freely then we will never be able to move away from Turkey, this works against GCs but they are unable to see this for fear that economical development in the north will diminish the desire for a solution, the more the GCs works towards limiting our trade with EU then the more we are dependent on Turkey, then how can we turn around and say withdraw your troops send 10.000 settler back, we cant, you have to work with us to improve the economy in the north so that we may take control of our own destiny. Its takes vision and courage to see and solve such issues and unfortunately we as Cypriots lack vision flexiblity and tollerance.
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