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Some predictions, perceptions and interpretations...

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby mehmet » Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:30 pm

Piratis, a 'no' will not push Turkey towards Islam, you underestimate the role of the military if you think that is likely. Will a 'no' push Turkey towards nationalism? In what way can Turkey be more nationalistic? It is the state ideology in the same way the Megali idea was before 1931 in Greece. I don't think you need to worry about Papdopoulos and Greece vetoing Turkey, there are enough others to do the task instead. What worries me is the huge miscalculation made by papadopoulos and others which led him to sit on his bum when there were talks going on to finalise Annan plan. Oops, I forgot, he was having 'secret' meetings which he was only too happy to publicise later. He did us a favour for letting us know who would be prepared to deal with him in 'secret'.
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Postby erolz » Sun Sep 26, 2004 5:19 pm

-mikkie2- wrote: And what is my agenda Erol?


You tell me

-mikkie2- wrote:You have got to be kidding me that the ordinary TC is benefiting. How many people are bought in from Turkey to work on costruction projects in the north? And who is actually making the money? Its mostly Turks from Turkey. The benefits the TC's get are getting are at the periphery of this massive industry that is going on at the moment.


The 'workers' allways make less money than the 'owners' - that is true anywhere. One of the groups making the most money are the estate agents here. There are purely TC owned estage agents making money. There are estate agents owned by TC and foreginers combined (Turkish foreginers as well as EU foreigners) also making money. There are construction companies that are TC owned and controlled as well as foreging and combined TC and foreign ones. This is no different from anywhere else. You would like TC and eveyone else to believe that there are no benfits from the property boom in the North for ordianry TC. You might like them to believe that but the fact is that there ARE benefits for ordinary TC as well as dwon sides. You can argue that not enough of these benefits accrue to the 'right' people - as you can anywhere else in the world - but you can not sensibly argue (as you try to do) that there are no benefits of this economic growth for ordinary TC. Ordinary TC work in construction, they work in estate agents, they work in anciallry businesses that support the construction industry and those that end up buyinf and living in properties here. Some TC even own estate agents and construction companies. Some also sell land they own, either land they owned pre 74 or landed they awarded for property they lost in the south after 74 - Turkish Cypriots do this (not just settlers).

-mikkie2- wrote:Who is actually buying and selling the land? There are many criminals wanted by the police that are living in north Cyprus making millions of pounds off our backs. You must be naive to not think that this sort of thing is not going on. The money is being taken out of Cyprus just as quickly as it is being made.


You do not have criminals in the south? The idea that the North is a haven for foreign criminals is just rubbish. North Cyprus represents one of the least safe places for a foregin criminal to flee to. The fact is that if the TRNC authorites discover a foreigners criminal record they simply put them on a plane and expell them from the country. No extradition. No legal wrangling. No discussion. Just good bye. There have been case of criminals here, on being discovered fleeing to the RoC because at least they have some legal protetion there and basis on which to fight extradition - unlike here.

-mikkie2- wrote:In the south at least the business is legal. Stolen property is not being bought and sold. The property boom in the south is not just attributable to selling property to foreigners. The vast majority is bought and sold by ordinary Cypriots. And construction standards are far higher in the south. I wonder how good the quality of construction is compared to the south.


Of course everything in the south is legal and everything in the north is illegal. You consider that property here is stolen. I consider it under dispute pending a comprehensive solution. Of course you as a GC must be wright beacuse you are a GC and I am from the north. Of course there is no issue of foreginers buying up property or land in the south. No issue of foreginers owning businesses in the south and repatirating profits, no criminals in the south foregin or otherwise. Tjhese are all things that relate only to the North.

The reality is that your issues with the property boom in the north have nothing to do with detrmintal effects to Cyprus as a whole or Cypriots in general. Your probelm is with how this affects your chances to get back that which you lost. Of course you present your issues as being one of 'concern for all Cypriots - GC and TC alike' - but in reality it is a concern for GC only - at least as far as I can see.

Piratis wrote:If I steal something from you and I sell it to somebody else then this somebody else if there was no way to know that the product was stolen he will simply loose his money. If he knew that the product was stolen then not only he will loose his money but he will end up in jail as well because he knowingly accepted to buy something that was stolen.


If however I buy something whose ownership is under dispute, then I may be taking a risk but I am not committing an illegal act. For you any property that was GC before 74 is clearly 'stolen'. For me such properties ownership is 'under dispute' pending a comprehensive settlement.. No doubt this will start another one of your long lectures about justice, human rights and other moralising. If so I will treat it with the respect it deserves.
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Postby -mikkie2- » Sun Sep 26, 2004 5:51 pm

Erol,

Saying what you said knowing full well that here are criminals there that are avoiding justice in Britain is really rather cheap. Does Asil Nadir have the fear of being extradited to the UK to face trial on charges of defrauding people of hundreds of millions of pounds? Thats just one high profile example.

In the north most of the land being bought and sold belongs to Greek Cypriots. It wasn't given to you, it was stolen, pure and simple. Trying to justify the continued injustice being made doesn't change the basic fundamental fact.

The annual GNP of the Republic is around 10bn dollars per annum. The north has turned over 2bn dollars in just six months and that is just in the construction sector. Where is all this money going?

I really do rest my case!
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Postby erolz » Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:33 pm

-mikkie2- wrote: Erol,

Saying what you said knowing full well that here are criminals there that are avoiding justice in Britain is really rather cheap. Does Asil Nadir have the fear of being extradited to the UK to face trial on charges of defrauding people of hundreds of millions of pounds? Thats just one high profile example.


Asil Nadir is not a foreign criminal. He is a TC citizen. That is one totaly exceptional case of a TC seeking refuge in the land of his brith. You use this as 'proof' that the North is full of non Cypriot criminals? If you are not a cypriot and you are a criminal then the TRNC is one of the worst places to hide. That is a fact and the criminals know it.

-mikkie2- wrote:In the north most of the land being bought and sold belongs to Greek Cypriots. It wasn't given to you, it was stolen, pure and simple. Trying to justify the continued injustice being made doesn't change the basic fundamental fact.


Most of it is under dispute that is true. I make no 'justification. I just point out that just because you consider it to be stolen land does not mean that it IS simply stolen land. Any more than me thinking that GC tried to steal all of Cyprus from the TC community in the period 63-74 through use of violence, intimidation and oppression means that this is the only reality. Ypou consider it stolen land. Many others do not see things so simplisiticly. Learn to live with this reality.

-mikkie2- wrote:The annual GNP of the Republic is around 10bn dollars per annum. The north has turned over 2bn dollars in just six months and that is just in the construction sector. Where is all this money going?

I really do rest my case!


No the GDP of the RoC is about 10bn dollars. GNP is another thing (see here for some help with economics http://www.fact-index.com/m/me/measures ... utput.html). Neither GDP or GNP relates to 'turn over of property sales' (whatever that is suppose to represent?) and as such it is hard to see what point if any your are making here. Do you have any idea what the 'turn over of property sales' in the South ammounts to, or is that irrlevant to your objectives?

The fact is that the GDP per capita in the RoC is over 3 times higher than that in the North. If the property boom in the North helps to equalise this then it should be welcome for its ability to do so. However let's face it you are not concerned with TC loosing out. You are concerend with that which you lost in 74 becomming harder for you to get back. You know that taking it back from 'foreginers' will be even harder than from TC, Turkish settlers or the TRNC. You also know that any moves towards economic parity between GC and TC in Cyprus will make it harder to _force_ TC to accept any solution offered by GC. These are the reasons why you are so 'concerned' about the property boom in the North. If you were able to say this then I would have no problem with your position. However you seem to want to try and convince me that your concern is for TC and not just for GC interests. This is just not believable to me given your general views and the way you present your case. Just say it - I don't like the property boom going on in NC because of the effects it has on GC interests. Spare us your crocodile tears over concern fro TC.
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Postby -mikkie2- » Sun Sep 26, 2004 11:42 pm

Erol,

you said

The fact is that the GDP per capita in the RoC is over 3 times higher than that in the North. If the property boom in the North helps to equalise this then it should be welcome for its ability to do so. However let's face it you are not concerned with TC loosing out. You are concerend with that which you lost in 74 becomming harder for you to get back. You know that taking it back from 'foreginers' will be even harder than from TC, Turkish settlers or the TRNC. You also know that any moves towards economic parity between GC and TC in Cyprus will make it harder to _force_ TC to accept any solution offered by GC. These are the reasons why you are so 'concerned' about the property boom in the North. If you were able to say this then I would have no problem with your position. However you seem to want to try and convince me that your concern is for TC and not just for GC interests. This is just not believable to me given your general views and the way you present your case. Just say it - I don't like the property boom going on in NC because of the effects it has on GC interests. Spare us your crocodile tears over concern fro TC.


No, my concern is for the future of Cyprus and the fate of both our communities. The property boom in the north, just like any boom, will turn to bust. The money being made is not staying in Cyprus, it is leaving Cyprus. My concern is that eventually the TC's will become disenfrachised. Their position is being undermined in the long run. It doesn't take an Einstein to work that out.

And of course the GC refugees are part of this equation. Do they not have rights? Are they 2nd class citizens? Do they not deserve to have justice too?

You make me out to be a nationalist, an oppressor and enosist and anything you care to mention. I am nothing of the sort. All I want is for us to work together to build a common future in Cyprus.
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Postby erolz » Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:00 am

-mikkie2- wrote: No, my concern is for the future of Cyprus and the fate of both our communities. The property boom in the north, just like any boom, will turn to bust. The money being made is not staying in Cyprus, it is leaving Cyprus. My concern is that eventually the TC's will become disenfrachised. Their position is being undermined in the long run. It doesn't take an Einstein to work that out.


and it does not take an Einstein to work out that is no different in effect or degree than property booms in the south. Yet this time you seem a lot more concerned for the future of Cyprus. I wonder why that is?

-mikkie2- wrote:And of course the GC refugees are part of this equation. Do they not have rights? Are they 2nd class citizens? Do they not deserve to have justice too?


They deserve compensation for their loss. As equally as anyone else that has suffered loss. Why this means that a TC property boom is any more 'wrong' or need to be stopped than property booms in the RoC I do not know.

-mikkie2- wrote:You make me out to be a nationalist, an oppressor and enosist and anything you care to mention. I am nothing of the sort. All I want is for us to work together to build a common future in Cyprus.


I just get fed up with GC telling me that their concern is for TC when clearly their concern is for _their_ loss, their position and their hopes for the future (ie one where GC regain everything they lost in 74 and TC community remains a political minority in their own country - under the political domination of GC community). I maintain that your real concern with regards to a property boom in the North has nothing to do with the effects of this on TC and everything to do with GC aspirations.
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Postby -mikkie2- » Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:55 pm

I maintain that your real concern with regards to a property boom in the North has nothing to do with the effects of this on TC and everything to do with GC aspirations.


Fine if that is what you think. What I think and what you think I think are two different things.
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Postby Piratis » Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:38 pm

If however I buy something whose ownership is under dispute, then I may be taking a risk but I am not committing an illegal act. For you any property that was GC before 74 is clearly 'stolen'. For me such properties ownership is 'under dispute' pending a comprehensive settlement..


If the opinion of the thief counted then everything stolen would be considered to be "under dispute".

This is not the case though. There is nothing under dispute regarding properties, just the continuation of illegality using the force of weapons.
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Postby brother » Tue Sep 28, 2004 2:45 pm

O.K now that you have all had a free for all out and out complete dis-respect for one another let me clarify the situation for you all, once and for all.

THE LAND IN THE NORTH THAT IS PART OF THE CONSTRUCTION BOOM BELONGS TO THE RIGHTFUL OWNERS OF PRE 1974 MAY THEY BE GREEK OR TURK AND THAT POINT CAN NOT BE ARGUED WHAT IS YOURS IS YOURS THE OTHER POINT THAT SHOULD BE ACCEPTED IS THAT 30 YEARS NO PROGRESS IN UNIFICATION HENCE AFTER ALL THE POVERTY AND AMBARGOES(THE R.O.C GOVERMENT DONE NOTHING TO AT LEAST ELEVIATE THAT PROBLEM INSTEAD CONTRIBUTED TO IT) THE CYPRIOTS ARE NOW MAKING SOME MONEY i.e JOBS CREATED THROUGH THE BOOM HENCE PUTTING FOOD IN PEOPLES MOUTHS SO AS TO RESPECT THE LAND OWNERS THE BOOM SHOULD BE STOPPED AND PEOPLE BECOME UNEMPLOYED AND HUNGRAY AGAIN THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE SO HERE LIES THE SOLUTION IF POPPA FINDS TIME BETWEEN HIS SECRET MEETINGS MAYBE HE CAN SIT DOWN AND TALK ABOUT COMPENSATION SO AS NO ONE IS LEFT OUT OF POCKET AND THAT WOULD BE ONE LESS PROBLEM FOR UNIFICATION.
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