Cyprus-Forum.com

[MicAtCyp]

Also notice, the formation of enclaves the formation of a clear and definete situation of "a state within a state", EVERYTHING from 1963 onwards was a clear plan by Turkey to form the geographical separation that would enable her claim 2 separate states or a Federation. The initial map of 1967(?) was for 34% of the land!!

So Turkey was just looking for an excuse.Nothing to do with restoration of Constitutional order. That was destroyed a long time ago, and Turkey was in that too.

The fact that this was the situation-in which Turkey and the TCs had a big hand in as well- did not give any rights to Turkey to intervene Militarily, on the first place, and thereupon proceed to real occupation of 37% of the land.

[insan]

About the federation Turkey proposed may I remind you that long long before the 74 the maps proposed by Turkey were showing 34% of the Northern part as the TC Fed State. In the end they got 37%. Coincidence?

I haven't heard about those maps but it is highly probable that what you said about those maps is true because of the Denktashes %32 land claim while he and Makarios were negotiating the issues in 1975-77 period.


By the way have you got any reliable sources regarding those maps? I've never seen them in neither Turkish sources nor Greek.

[insan]

Also notice, the formation of enclaves the formation of a clear and definete situation of "a state within a state", EVERYTHING from 1963 onwards was a clear plan by Turkey to form the geographical separation that would enable her claim 2 separate states or a Federation. The initial map of 1967(?) was for 34% of the land!!

Enosis was a fact re biraber...

Although Enosis and Taksim had been prohibited by the treaties of 60s, first the GC extremists, their masters and servants revealed their living aspiration to Enosis then TC extremists, their masters and servants retaliated with their living aspiration Taksim... There were two alternatives for TC side to follow either retaliating to Enosis with Taksim or opposing to Enosis and defending the unitary state of RoC nevertheless democraticaly working to make the constitution fairer and take side by GC left in order to eliminate the Enosists. They chose Taksim but also it shouldn't be forgotten that the weak TC left also defended the democratic dialogue and as it is known some TC leftists assasinated by extreme right wing TMT.

So Turkey was just looking for an excuse.Nothing to do with restoration of Constitutional order. That was destroyed a long time ago, and Turkey was in that too.

That's true but it's a fact that Enosists played a great role in this game and made Turkey to prepare an alternative plan vs Enosis. I don't think that if there had been no actions of Enosists Turkey anyhow would prepare such partition plan. Turkey's partition plan seems to me more likely a retaliation to Enosis.

The fact that this was the situation-in which Turkey and the TCs had a big hand in as well- did not give any rights to Turkey to intervene Militarily, on the first place, and thereupon proceed to real occupation of 37% of the land.

If all relevant parties had agreed on all of the issues in 1975, the constitutional order would have been restored under the Federation of Cyprus, the land that didn't belong to TCs given back and the problem solved...

But unfortunately they couldn't agree on all of the issues. Each parties solution thesis and the perspectives regarding the Cyprus Problem have really some serious differneces.

As a TC I am; when I examine two parties demands and claims I also consider some demands, claims and expectations of both parties unacceptable to each other as you know my points I've stated them many times on different boards...

[MicAtCyp]

By the way have you got any reliable sources regarding those maps? I've never seen them in neither Turkish sources nor Greek.

I havent seen the maps either but there are plently of references in cyprus-conflict.com

here are two excerpts

Denktash and the Turkish Foreign Minister, Professor Turan Gunes, took the view that the new crisis disproved the assumption made after 1967 that enosis was dead. The Turkish Cypriots had been made to feel unwanted in Cyprus, so, it was said, it was now essential to have a geographical federation of two autonomous zones, of which the Turkish zone would occupy the northern 34% of the island. The Turkish Cypriots would then have an adequate sense of security and a reliable guarantee against enosis since, if there were again to be any move towards union with Greece, they would then be in a position to achieve partition.

On 13 August 1974 the Turks demanded that either their main plan or a new version produced by Professor Gunes under which the Turkish federal zone would be divided between six cantons in different parts of the island but would still add up to 34% must be accepted in principle that night without further delay. Under extreme pressure to yield the principle of federation to save Cyprus from a further invasion Clerides asked for 36 to 48 hours to consult with Athens,.....

Although I don't disagree that Enosis was the initial cause of the problem however I am not sure if the demand for taksim was really justified.

The excuse I often hear is that the TCs would be exterminated like the Turks in Crete.This however is a false argument because the Turks of Crete (annexed to Greece in 1913) were not exterminated but followed the population exchange agreement with Ataturk in 1923 (treaty of Lausane).In which about 2 million(?) Greeks got out of Turkey except those of Constantinople(Instabul), and all Turks except those of Western Thace got out of Greece!

A comparable case in my opinion would be the Turks living in Western Thrace and the Turks living in the Dodecanese islands including the big island of Rhodes that were annexed to Greece after WWII. As you know the Turks in Rhodes never had any problems with the Greeks although they are about 15%(? I think). Whereas all Greeks from the islands under Turkish rule and Constantinople (Instabul) were eventually expelled.

But anyhow justifiable or not that was the situation. Whats absolutely certain is that both Greece and Turkey supported -and most propably were the inventors of- Enosis and Taksim for their own interests. Greece for expanding and Turkey for Geopolitical and strategic reasons.

There are many indications the coup and the invasion were actually agreed between Greece and Turkey under the aegis of Kissinger. For example the Junta of Greece agreed to partition the island from as back as September 1967 when Junta leader George Papadopoulos offered a partition agreement (along the lines of the Acheson Plan) to the Turkish leaders at a meeting they had at the Greek-Turkish borders....

[metecyp]

Although I don't disagree that Enosis was the initial cause of the problem however I am not sure if the demand for taksim was really justified.

Demand for taksim is only by-product of demand for enosis so it is justified as much as enosis is justified. What is not justified is that after 1963, the Turkish Cypriot leadership still put taksim before Republic of Cyprus and their actions reflected this all the way. I think if the coup did not happen, we would have a functioning Republic of Cyprus today. It was the coup that helped taksim supporters to further their claim that GCs cannot be trusted and they should have their own government. It was also the coup that gave Turkey long awaited excuse to take over Cyprus.

[MicAtCyp]

Then why there was no demand for taksim in Rhodes that was annexed with Greece only a decade before? Did the Rhodian Turks get exterminated? Or the rest of the Turks in the Dodecanese?

Is there a possibility the TCs would not stand the idea that the ex-slave boys could perhaps become masters of themselves? Just asking the question in a thought provoking effort.

[metecyp]

Then why there was no demand for taksim in Rhodes that was annexed with Greece only a decade before? Did the Rhodian Turks get exterminated? Or the rest of the Turks in the Dodecanese?

Maybe their numbers were not high enough, maybe they prefered to move to Turkey under the population exchange agreements...I don't know the answer but I don't think that it matters anyway.

Is there a possibility the TCs would not stand the idea that the ex-slave boys could perhaps become masters of themselves? Just asking the question in a thought provoking effort.

I don't know what you're trying to do here but the fact is a country cannot be stable by ignoring the wishes and desires of a large part of its population. Enosis might have been a majority decision but it completely ignored TCs and resulted in other negative ideas like Taksim. And we're in the mess of today where Europeans are taking over our island while we engage in useless master-slave type of arguments.

[-mikkie2-]

To my mind, if the Turkish Cypriots genuinely want to work rest and play with their GC compatriots they have to show it. They have to show that they are not just pawns of mainland Turkey, because frankly, the TC's have been used and abused by Turkey as well.

The easiest and most lawful way for the TC's to show that they mean business is perhaps to start exercising their rights under the Republic of Cyprus and perhaps that way we can actually solve our differences ourselves without the interference of UK and US, Greece and Turkey. Between 1967 and 1974 we were probably closer to a solution than there ever could have been, until the fanatic idiots decided to topple Makarios and bring about the coup.

However, can you really see that happening? In my view the TC's are living off the stolen property and lands of the Greek Cypriots. In the last 6 months it is estimated that the property and construction sector has netted 2bn dollars! It makes the 300mln dollars that Turkey is pumping into N. Cyprus a drop in the ocean. And where is the 2bn going? It is going into the hands of the crooks from Turkey and a select few TC's.

For the TC's to revert to lawful status would mean they would have to give up the spoils. They are caught between a rock and a hard place. What is the best way out? I don't really know.

[mehmet]

My understanding was that the Greeks from everywhere except Istanbul were required to leave. There is still a Greek population in Istanbul. I see it for myself this year.

[metecyp]

To my mind, if the Turkish Cypriots genuinely want to work rest and play with their GC compatriots they have to show it. They have to show that they are not just pawns of mainland Turkey, because frankly, the TC's have been used and abused by Turkey as well.

TCs said "Yes" to the Annan plan. They said yes to reducing Turkish soldiers from 40.000 to 650, they said yes to return of significant land, they said yes to living not ethnically pure state...want me to count more? It's GCs that need to show TCs that they really want TCs to have a voice in Cyprus.