Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz66]

In order to solve a problem, you must first identify the specific cause. Bashing all Cypriots, or the Cypriot nature, or cultural dissonance, or whatever - does not solve any problems.

You mean specific causes - plural and as well as identifying the multiple causes some realistic assessment of the relative degree to which each of the causes contributes to the over all problem is necessary.

Because hunting has caused extinctions in the past (e.g. Dodo), it doesn't mean bird-trapping will cause extinctions in this specific case. It hasn't over thousands of years. For sure, bird-trapping is cruel and I am 100% against it. It's also illegal and I want to see perpetrators severely fined and imprisoned.

There is not an expert in this area that does not believe that the impact on a number of endangered species is materially and negatively impacted by the scale of illegal bird trapping as it is carried out TODAY in Cyprus. Not a one. Yet you as someone who professes to consider trapping as 'cruel' and wants to see such illegal activity prosecuted, you CHOSE to believe that actually such trapping does not materially affect such endangered species, despite there being no expert onion or studies to support such a view. Why is that ? The only obvious conclusion as to why that is that I can see is because you just do not want to have to get into your head that Cypriots are 'bad' in this regard. That is cognitive dissonance by the way - the discomfort of having two opposing ideas in your head at the same time, the idea that Cypriots are 'good' people and the idea that as far as bird trapping goes they are 'bad'. So rather than deal with this discomfort you simply chose to believe that in terms of bird trapping Cypriots are not 'bad' despite the actual evidence.

As for 'this trapping has gone on for thousands of years and not lead to depletion of species' you are again I am afraid just totally wrong in your analysis there. The simple truth and reality is that illegal bird trapping as it is practiced TODAY is totally different from how it was practiced 100 years ago or 50 years ago or even 30 years ago. Different in methods used, different in who does it and why they do it and totally different in numbers of birds involved, by orders of magnitude, literally. And this sorry truth is compounded by the even increasing pressures from those causes you mention below, not rendered irrelevant by them as you would chose to believe.

But in the case of these birds, depletion of habitat and over-farming are the culprits; so why are you in denial over these concerns?

They ARE major causes of the threat of species depletion, of course they are and I have NEVER denied this. No one in their right mind who done even the most cursory of research into the issue would deny this, just as no one in their right mind would deny the material impact of illegal trapping as it is carried out today, without a strong physiological reason to do so (avoiding cognitive dissonance).

The point is with both the cause of habitat depletion and modern intensive farming methods there are very real and strong arguments that there must be a balance between the needs of society for economic growth and cheaper and more plentiful food production and the need to try and the threat of species depletion. You can try and argue that ALL habitat depletion should cease and even be reversed and that ALL farming should revert back to methods used 100 years ago and you can even argue that if we did this the increased threat then to species depletion of illegal bird trapping as it is done today would be immaterial and you might even be right in that regard. But and it is a huge but, that is simply not going to happen and nor on balance should it happen.

With illegal bird trapping however there is just no compelling 'balance' argument to be had, at all. None worth any merit. There is no compelling social NEED to trap and eat small birds, like there is an arguably compelling social need to encroach on natural habitats or to increase the intensity of farming methods. All there is is some WANT from some to eat these things and some illegal revenue that accrues almost entirely these days to orgnaised illegal gangs, essentially the same illegal gangs that largely control all profitable illegal activities in their respective areas, be it gambling, prostitution or drugs. That is all there is to 'balance' against the damage done to endangered species in the case of illegal trapping. That and the ability to deal with the inevitable cognitive dissonance that is.

Effectively stopping close to all illegal trapping in Cyprus and therefore the very real and material damage it does, unlike so many other social issues, is actually entirely and realistically achievable and through essentially individual choice. All it actually requires is for enough individual Cypriots to accept the plain facts that how it is practiced today IS materially damaging and that stopping it has almost no balancing 'social' need. But in order to do that they will need to learn to deal with the 'cognitive dissonance' this would entail.

If I thought there was even a 1% chance of you taking up the offer GIG, I would offer to arrange for you to spend just two days with birdlife Cyprus going on their 'patrols' that they do twice yearly to scientifically measure the increase or decrease in illegal trapping activity year on year and which they have been doing every year from the early 2000's. Having done exactly this myself in the past I know that if you did you would see for yourself the real scale of this activity and how it is not just the case of a few individuals, following the traditions of their fathers and grand fathers. You would see, as I have, the acres of planted rows of arcacia, complete with water irrigation systems that has NO commercial value other than for illegal bird trapping. Sites used year after year. You would see as I have the piles of gravel specifically transported to these places to be used to throw and chase the birds into the meters and meters of mist nets. You would see the wires and speakers in the trees and sometimes even car batteries in place to play out bird calls to attract migrating birds into the trees. You would see, as I have the tires filled with concrete and a hollow pole, ready for the mist net poles to be placed into. You would see as I have, the direct evidence of feathers and even the occasional corpse littering the 'runs' between the rows of arcaia trees. And if you were to go to the 'right' places, as I have, you would see how within minutes of you arriving and recording these signs and the meters of runs and the evidence of how recently they have been used, two or three trucks will mysteriously appear from no where and block your vehicle and a semi circle of friendly men will casually chat with you asking what you are doing and invite you back to the local coffee shot for coffee and even something to eat. All very 'nicely' but also with the very clear undertone message that this is 'their' area and they do not take kindly to people messing with them and their activities and livelihoods. I know that even in just two days (out of a twice annual 'season' of 6-8 weeks each) you would see most if not all of these things I have described, just as I myself saw them. And that if you did take up this offer and saw these things for yourself and had an ounce of sincerity within you, you would not then seek to portray illegal bird trapping as it is practiced today in Cyprus as a rare and exceptional thing akin to cock fighting in the UK today or insist as you do now, that the damage to endangered species by these activates is essentially irrelevant in comparison to other causes. You have only to say the word and I will do my best to arrange such a two days for you.

[Demonax]

Nice post "g"IG.

It seems Erolz posts are there to prove that Cypriots are less "civilized" than others.

Erolz, I can understand you oppose trapping. But that is no reason for you to be making sweeping generalized statements about Cypriots. It is nowhere near as bad as what occurs in other "more civilized" countries like Japan which is why I told you to go to Japan and save the Whales.

Or France and Italy where the trapping of birds is still rife despite EU laws against it.

In Cyprus bird-trapping is now on the increase due to increased unemployment and is seen as a way to supplement income. It's a sad fact that it's less about 'tradition' than simple economics.

[B25]

I don't believe Elroz is remotely interested on the birds' well being with all this dribble he is spouting, more like another excuse to put down the GCs again!
If he had spent as much effort spouting on how to remove the Anatolian gypsies he has imported he may have even got a standing ovation, but seriously, i mean seriously, you return back to be abusive and in our faces, your words no mine, and all you can muster is bird trapping or the fact that i used an insulting adjective of the blacks. Ha ha bloody ha, just who are you trying to kid. Seriously.
You have been read and measured and I and many others kniw what you are about, you won't find any more of those Turkish ass kissers here unless they return to give you some moral support to continue your usual gc bashing. Or, I Wonder are you just giving vp a break to continue you partitionist agender.
Eitherway gardash i could not give a flying fig what you think, hade assirktir.

[Demonax]

I don't believe Elroz is remotely interested on the birds' well being with all this dribble he is spouting, more like another excuse to put down the GCs again!
If he had spent as much effort spouting on how to remove the Anatolian gypsies he has imported he may have even got a standing ovation.

Good point, B25. GCs don’t like being told by the EU to think about the fate of endangered birds while the same EU does bugger-all about the presence of Turkish soldiers and settlers on Cypriot (and by extension) EU territory.

It's a question of priorities. Sort out the occupation of Cyprus first, restore the rights, dignity and property of Cypriots then we'll get around to discussing the fate of the cuckoo!

[B25]

Exactly! Thank you for making it obvious, maybe now they might just understand.

[GreekIslandGirl]

Because hunting has caused extinctions in the past (e.g. Dodo), it doesn't mean bird-trapping will cause extinctions in this specific case. It hasn't over thousands of years. For sure, bird-trapping is cruel and I am 100% against it. It's also illegal and I want to see perpetrators severely fined and imprisoned.

There is not an expert in this area that does not believe that the impact on a number of endangered species is materially and negatively impacted by the scale of illegal bird trapping as it is carried out TODAY in Cyprus. Not a one. Yet you as someone who professes to consider trapping as 'cruel' and wants to see such illegal activity prosecuted, you CHOSE to believe that actually such trapping does not materially affect such endangered species, despite there being no expert onion or studies to support such a view. Why is that ?

I stated that habitat-loss and over-farming, both amplified by over-population are the main problem. Those are the overriding factors that cause bird extinction in this day and age. Making trapping illegal (done) safeguards against the low numbers, caused by habitat-loss and over-farming, from suffering more. It's not the hunting that caused the problem of low bird numbers (before they even arrive in Cyprus) as that has been sustainable practice for thousands of years. It's the over-population (a recent problem) that has caused the problem, both in Cyprus and globally.

The only obvious conclusion as to why that is that I can see is because you just do not want to have to get into your head that Cypriots are 'bad' in this regard

.

This is really your agenda!

Now, tootle off 'cos you've exhausted your ruse of "caring".

[Paphitis]

Nice post "g"IG.

It seems Erolz posts are there to prove that Cypriots are less "civilized" than others.

Erolz, I can understand you oppose trapping. But that is no reason for you to be making sweeping generalized statements about Cypriots. It is nowhere near as bad as what occurs in other "more civilized" countries like Japan which is why I told you to go to Japan and save the Whales.

Or France and Italy where the trapping of birds is still rife despite EU laws against it.

In Cyprus bird-trapping is now on the increase due to increased unemployment and is seen as a way to supplement income. It's a sad fact that it's less about 'tradition' than simple economics.

Well, I suppose you can't blame people on the edge trying to support their family.

[erolz66]

I don't believe Elroz is remotely interested on the birds' well being with all this dribble he is spouting, more like another excuse to put down the GCs again!

Think I am going to have to start calling you 5B2, B25

So on one side we have your 'choice' to believe that I have no interest in the issue of illegal trapping. On the other side we have the fact, that could actually be verified, that I did work unpaid for one season with birdlife Cyprus in the South, specifically on the illegal trapping monitoring project and then did 2 further seasons paid and then worked with Bird life Cyprus and Kuskor in the North specifically to extend this monitoring project in the North. Clearly I did all this some years ago, not because of any real interest in the issue of illegal bird trapping in Cyprus (South AND North) but merely so I could use it years later as 'cover' on this forum to 'put down' GC, and even though throughout I have only ever referred to Cypriots generically and not GC specifically.

The very notion is just sheer madness and this is just yet one more example of the 'pattern' I have talked about, of denial , misrepresentation, distraction and deflection as far as I am concerned.

[B25]

For the record there is no South (should read south) or North ( should read north), only a turk would make such a comment. By stating such you are referencing gc and tc stealthily, but God forbid you mention it.

You have to admit those, they are very tasty especially with a sip of black label huh?

[The subaltern]

Cyprus, in the last 20 years or so, has been singled out for severe criticism by individuals with an axe to grind and by bird lobbies purportedly interested in saving birds. Bird trapping and bird eating was identified as a “barbaric” habit that ought to be stamped out by force, if need be, in order to save the birds of Europe from extinction.
How true is the assertion that the Cypriot tradition contributes if at all to the birds’ demise?
Lets then compare the Cypriot tradition with what goes on in Europe. Figures here are important since figure of birds killed are constantly been reported in order to prove that the Cypriots are indeed killing birds in large number.

The highest ever figure of birds killed in Cyprus was 20 million, reported by two Swedish reporters, Mr Lars Lindell and Anders Wirdheim in May 2001 in “ Ver Vegelwaerld” an ornithological magazine under the headline Killing fields, where it was stated that “every year, roughly 20 million birds are killed in Cyprus. The majority of these birds are caught in mist nets, traps, (?) or with limesticks.”
The EU got on the numbers game and in its Standing Committee, 21st meating Strasbourg, 26-30 November 2001 reported that “12.6 million birds are caught each year. This is in addition to more than 7 million birds that are illegally shot” making the total 20 million the same as per the Swedish report. Please note the above figures were reported during the Cyprus accession negotiations to join the EU! Smell a rat anywhere?
After Cyprus joined the EU figures of birds killed started oscillating wildly
from hundreds of thousands to millions, depending to where you happened to look. Take your pick and make your case. The literature makes a fascinating read.
However, BirdLife Cyprus in its advert in the Phileleftheros newspaper, this time in Greek rather than its usual English communications, reported on 8th of June 2013 that “hundreds of thousands of birds killed every year…” etc Apart from numbers of birds killed in the various publications you will also find interesting descriptions attached to the people doing the bird trapping eg Mafiosi, criminals, barbarians and the like thus reinforcing the image of Cyprus they have created.
This is the Cyprus situation. Let’s now compare the Cypriot bird death toll to the Western European one.

19 million birds killed every year in hunting estates in Britain alone

55 million birds a year are killed by cats in Britain and 50 million in Germany; Two countries where the appropriate research was carried out. In the USA 1.4-3.7 BILLION birds are killed by cats every year (Smithsonian Institute)

40 million starlings disappeared from the EU, including Britain since 1980, plus 300 million farmland birds lost from Europe over the same period.

20 million birds a year are killed by wind turbines in Spain alone.

While Jeff Kirby on bird “mortality owing to artificial structures” mentions “ Klen (2009) reports on a vast and growing amount of evidence supporting the interpretation that, except for habitat destruction, collusion with clear and reflective sheet glass and plastic cause deaths of more birds than any other human-related avian mortality factor. From published estimates, an upper level of 1 billion annual kills in the USA is likely conservative; the worldwide toll is expected to be in billions” Of course most kills will occur in the civilised world since the high-rise buildings and skyscrapers are mostly found in the developed world.

These are just some numbers of birds killed in Europe. Not included are birds killed as a result of collusions on power lines, birds killed due to poisoning by farmers, due to starvation as a result of the depletion of food sources etc.

Suppose now the Cypriots stop hunting and eating birds tomorrow. Would this have an effect on the birds’ survival? Far from it; in fact the death toll will be increasing.
Under the heading “almost half of Europe’s bird species at risk” Mr Mark Avery, conservation director of the RSPB fears that “the great danger is that we will now export the intensive agriculture to Eastern Europe destroying their wild life. (The Guardian Newspaper) Unless of course the civilised Europeans intervene to keep the rest of the world under developed in order to save the birds.

An interesting environmentally friendly method of bird management was practised in Nigeria where human scarers, women and children, were employed in scaring birds off farms instead of poisoning them. “However, a resent trend of development in the country, is now increasingly difficult to get human scarers . All the youths are now been compelled to go to school… Also, with in the last few years the cost of labour has risen by 400% so that to employ hands for scaring has become very expensive. Bird trapping is not very common, though attempts are just made to improve both local and imported traps to suit the habitat and size of the local species” (M. Akande. Proceedings of the 8th vertebrate pest conference 1975 University of Nebraska)

Literature is full of the achievements of the Western Europeans in the field of animal and avian destruction from the 17th century to today. Wild animal and bird exploitation for gain has brought some species to extinction and others to the brink of collapse yet the same people have the audacity to accuse others practising a tradition that goes back to the 5th century BC that had no effect on the species been hunted ie blackcap. In fact, according to BirdLife international the numbers of blackcaps in Europe are increasing.
Hypocrisy, a holier than though attitude with a large dose of propaganda and downright lies, keeps the ambelopoulia on the agenda and the Cypriots on the defensive.