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...moving to City-States

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Re: ...moving to City-States

Postby erolz66 » Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:22 pm

Kikapu wrote: Democracy as in where all citizens are treated equally, which is the catalyst that binds individuals to make the "people" of any country, Erolz. Cyprus as a whole never had True Democracy in it's history, is the reason why the people did not bind together. Without True Democracy for Cyprus, people of Cyprus will never bind to become "one people", and there are those who are doing everything to deny for Cyprus to have "one people" by not wanting True Democracy for Cyprus.


You really think if enosis had been achieved in 1960, that TC would have been treated equally to GC in Cyprus ? That TC would have become part of 'one people' - the Greek people ?

Kikapu wrote:The "Democratic EU" is a club and not an individual country, therefore club rules do apply, which are no different than your local Golf Country Club or a Pub landlord or restaurant owner who can refuse to let you become a club member or serve you if he doesn't want to for what ever reason. Don't mix your oranges and lemons, Erolz. That is their Democratic rights to do so if they wish to, and some do.


I love this idea that the principals of democracy are somehow different within a country than with unions of countries. It is an argument that has no logical foundation to it. Within countries there are countless examples where democracy requires equal representation of groups regardless of numbers just as there are countless examples in unions between countries. The reason why democracy requires such disproportionate representation is obvious, unless you have a political agenda to ignore it. To say that democracy works one way for oranges and another way for lemons is your madness not mine.
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Re: ...moving to City-States

Postby erolz66 » Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:24 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:There is a lot more to democracy than just how 50% of the population vote. There has to be a vibrant, free media and other platforms through which the opposition can make its voice heard. There has to be tolerance for free, open debate. There has to be an independent judiciary, free from political interference. Compare that with the reality on the ground in Turkey under the AKP's increasingly dictatorial regime.


Would you like to apply these criteria to the RoC between 63-74 and share your views on how 'democratic' that government was ?
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Re: ...moving to City-States

Postby Tim Drayton » Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:47 pm

erolz66 wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:There is a lot more to democracy than just how 50% of the population vote. There has to be a vibrant, free media and other platforms through which the opposition can make its voice heard. There has to be tolerance for free, open debate. There has to be an independent judiciary, free from political interference. Compare that with the reality on the ground in Turkey under the AKP's increasingly dictatorial regime.


Would you like to apply these criteria to the RoC between 63-74 and share your views on how 'democratic' that government was ?


I sense a false dichotomy being imposed here. Just because I am appalled by the way Turkey - a country that I lived in for a long time and where I know a lot of people - is slipping in the direction of totalitarianism, you seem to assume that, simply by virtue of holding that opinion, there are other opinions that I must hold.
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Re: ...moving to City-States

Postby zan » Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:51 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:
zan wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:And, I forget to ask above, can you speak of a regime as being democratic when it summarily removes hundreds of policemen and prosecutors from their posts simply because they are conducting an investigation into a web of corruption on a massive scale whose tentacles stretched to the very top of that regime?



I believe the same is happening in the UK because of "cutbacks". The police allowing a group of kids to riot and then escalate it. Backlash?? MPs cash claims row. Backlash? BBC and media basically taken over. It all stinks.


Of course it all stinks, but given the size of the corruption involved in that case and the way the regime was able both to silence the investigation and then carry on as though nothing ever happened, the stench coming from that particular affair has a whole noxious flavour of its own.

By the way, I believed that America was behind that corruption investigation and had decided it was the time for Erdoğan to go - the timing was strange given that many of the events involved took place years ago and had been brushed under the carpet until then - so, either I was wrong about that, or Erdoğan has successfully managed to win against America (which seems a little implausible).



It has to do with internal politics and an opening that other parties saw Tim. Of course the US used all it could and that is why Erdogan called on all to realise outside interference. He wished he had not tried to destroy the army. Turkey is still not safe from the US or Russia. So in a way, it is a victory against the US but they are now backing him again. It changes by the day. American democracy hey. You gotta love them :roll:
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Re: ...moving to City-States

Postby zan » Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:57 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:
erolz66 wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:There is a lot more to democracy than just how 50% of the population vote. There has to be a vibrant, free media and other platforms through which the opposition can make its voice heard. There has to be tolerance for free, open debate. There has to be an independent judiciary, free from political interference. Compare that with the reality on the ground in Turkey under the AKP's increasingly dictatorial regime.


Would you like to apply these criteria to the RoC between 63-74 and share your views on how 'democratic' that government was ?


I sense a false dichotomy being imposed here. Just because I am appalled by the way Turkey - a country that I lived in for a long time and where I know a lot of people - is slipping in the direction of totalitarianism, you seem to assume that, simply by virtue of holding that opinion, there are other opinions that I must hold.



I must admit it did seem that way at first Tim.
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Re: ...moving to City-States

Postby Tim Drayton » Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:04 pm

zan wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:
zan wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:And, I forget to ask above, can you speak of a regime as being democratic when it summarily removes hundreds of policemen and prosecutors from their posts simply because they are conducting an investigation into a web of corruption on a massive scale whose tentacles stretched to the very top of that regime?



I believe the same is happening in the UK because of "cutbacks". The police allowing a group of kids to riot and then escalate it. Backlash?? MPs cash claims row. Backlash? BBC and media basically taken over. It all stinks.


Of course it all stinks, but given the size of the corruption involved in that case and the way the regime was able both to silence the investigation and then carry on as though nothing ever happened, the stench coming from that particular affair has a whole noxious flavour of its own.

By the way, I believed that America was behind that corruption investigation and had decided it was the time for Erdoğan to go - the timing was strange given that many of the events involved took place years ago and had been brushed under the carpet until then - so, either I was wrong about that, or Erdoğan has successfully managed to win against America (which seems a little implausible).




It has to do with internal politics and an opening that other parties saw Tim. Of course the US used all it could and that is why Erdogan called on all to realise outside interference. He wished he had not tried to destroy the army. Turkey is still not safe from the US or Russia. So in a way, it is a victory against the US but they are now backing him again. It changes by the day. American democracy hey. You gotta love them :roll:


Well, that corruption investigation was lead by people in the police and judiciary affiliated to Fetullah Gülen's organisation ("the Cemaat") and I have always seen them as being an agent of American imperialism, so it looked quite simple to me for a while and Erdoğan's days seemed numbered . However, if Erdoğan "got away with it", it means there is more too it than that.
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Re: ...moving to City-States

Postby zan » Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:13 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:http://www.cumhuriyet.com.tr/Archive/2014/2/6/38313_resource/fular.jpg

I am happy to report an error in the above post. It seems that on 6 February, Ayşe Deniz Karacagil (pictured above, centre), indicted, inter alia, on the charge of “wearing a red neckerchief which symbolises socialism,” along with four other people arrested in the course of the Gezi protests and indicted on similarly ludicrous and unfounded charges, was acquitted by Antalya Serious Crime Court on 6 February after spending four months and four days in remand - surely a punishment of a kind.

I see this as being a victory for the Turkish judicial system which has not yet been fully brought under the political control of the autocratic AKP regime - but you can be sure they are working on it and one day the outrageous offence - in the eyes of Islamofascists - of a woman wearing a red neckerchief (or even being alleged to have done so) will not go unpunished - unless Erdoğan is kicked out in the coming presidential elections.

http://www.cumhuriyet.com.tr/haber/turk ... ozgur.html


I am afraid I slipped up above. Ayşe Deniz Karacagil and the four others were simply released from pre-trial remand. The trial continues and they have to sign on at a police station once a week. It seems that at a more recent hearing a successful application was made for their belongings to be returned, except the notorious red neckerchief, which has been retained as evidence. I would be grateful if anybody can name the article of the Turkish Penal Code or any other Turkish law according to which the wearing of a red neckerchief constitutes a criminal offence. If not, how can it be said that the rule of law applies in a country that arbitrarily subjects somebody to penal prosecution for something that is not defined as being an offence in the law. And, can any country in which the rule of law no longer applies be described as democratic?



Again , not condoning but trying to give a balance to the person who seems to be confused by all of this, Kiks, I am afraid of the open ended terrorist law in the UK. I am appalled by the US justifying the phone tapping of sovereign states by saying it has a right to defend itself.
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Re: ...moving to City-States

Postby zan » Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:15 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:
zan wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:
zan wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:And, I forget to ask above, can you speak of a regime as being democratic when it summarily removes hundreds of policemen and prosecutors from their posts simply because they are conducting an investigation into a web of corruption on a massive scale whose tentacles stretched to the very top of that regime?



I believe the same is happening in the UK because of "cutbacks". The police allowing a group of kids to riot and then escalate it. Backlash?? MPs cash claims row. Backlash? BBC and media basically taken over. It all stinks.


Of course it all stinks, but given the size of the corruption involved in that case and the way the regime was able both to silence the investigation and then carry on as though nothing ever happened, the stench coming from that particular affair has a whole noxious flavour of its own.

By the way, I believed that America was behind that corruption investigation and had decided it was the time for Erdoğan to go - the timing was strange given that many of the events involved took place years ago and had been brushed under the carpet until then - so, either I was wrong about that, or Erdoğan has successfully managed to win against America (which seems a little implausible).




It has to do with internal politics and an opening that other parties saw Tim. Of course the US used all it could and that is why Erdogan called on all to realise outside interference. He wished he had not tried to destroy the army. Turkey is still not safe from the US or Russia. So in a way, it is a victory against the US but they are now backing him again. It changes by the day. American democracy hey. You gotta love them :roll:


Well, that corruption investigation was lead by people in the police and judiciary affiliated to Fetullah Gülen's organisation ("the Cemaat") and I have always seen them as being an agent of American imperialism, so it looked quite simple to me for a while and Erdoğan's days seemed numbered . However, if Erdoğan "got away with it", it means there is more too it than that.


As I said, it changes day by day and Russia having a go in the Ukraine has given it "more to it" IMHO!!
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Re: ...moving to City-States

Postby erolz66 » Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:30 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:
erolz66 wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:There is a lot more to democracy than just how 50% of the population vote. There has to be a vibrant, free media and other platforms through which the opposition can make its voice heard. There has to be tolerance for free, open debate. There has to be an independent judiciary, free from political interference. Compare that with the reality on the ground in Turkey under the AKP's increasingly dictatorial regime.


Would you like to apply these criteria to the RoC between 63-74 and share your views on how 'democratic' that government was ?


I sense a false dichotomy being imposed here. Just because I am appalled by the way Turkey - a country that I lived in for a long time and where I know a lot of people - is slipping in the direction of totalitarianism, you seem to assume that, simply by virtue of holding that opinion, there are other opinions that I must hold.


I am assuming nothing, I was asking for your view that's all. Do you think there was a vibrant free media in Cyprus in the period 63-74 ? Do you think there was tolerance for free, open debate? Do you think there was an independent judiciary free from political interference ?
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Re: ...moving to City-States

Postby Tim Drayton » Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:38 pm

erolz66 wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:
erolz66 wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:There is a lot more to democracy than just how 50% of the population vote. There has to be a vibrant, free media and other platforms through which the opposition can make its voice heard. There has to be tolerance for free, open debate. There has to be an independent judiciary, free from political interference. Compare that with the reality on the ground in Turkey under the AKP's increasingly dictatorial regime.


Would you like to apply these criteria to the RoC between 63-74 and share your views on how 'democratic' that government was ?


I sense a false dichotomy being imposed here. Just because I am appalled by the way Turkey - a country that I lived in for a long time and where I know a lot of people - is slipping in the direction of totalitarianism, you seem to assume that, simply by virtue of holding that opinion, there are other opinions that I must hold.


I am assuming nothing, I was asking for your view that's all. Do you think there was a vibrant free media in Cyprus in the period 63-74 ? Do you think there was tolerance for free, open debate? Do you think there was an independent judiciary free from political interference ?


Not particularly, no.
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