The Best Cyprus Community

Skip to content


The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Re: The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:09 pm

N.B. - Regarding the myth that Greece never existed or the terms referring to Greeks never existed and were some kind of modern invention post 1821 : :!:

The Varangian Guards (elite Nordic/German guards of the Byzantine emperors, from 750 ad onward) refered to Greece in a number of scripts. For example, from wiki:

The Greece runestones (Swedish: Greklandsstenarna) are about 30 runestones containing information related to voyages made by Norsemen to the Byzantine Empire. They were made during the Viking Age until about 1100 and were engraved in the Old Norse language with Scandinavian runes. All the stones have been found in modern-day Sweden, the majority in Uppland (18 runestones) and Södermanland (7 runestones). Most were inscribed in memory of members of the Varangian Guard who never returned home, but a few inscriptions mention men who returned with wealth, and a boulder in Ed was engraved on the orders of a former officer of the Guard.
On these runestones the word Grikkland ("Greece") appears in three inscriptions,[1] the word Grikk(j)ar ("Greeks") appears in 25 inscriptions,[2] two stones refer to men as grikkfari ("traveller to Greece")[3] and one stone refers to Grikkhafnir ("Greek harbours").[4] Among other runestones which refer to expeditions abroad, the only groups which are comparable in number are the so-called "England runestones" that mention expeditions to England[5] and the 26 Ingvar runestones that refer to a Viking expedition to the Middle East.


So many Scandinavians left to enlist in the guard that a medieval Swedish law from Västergötland stated that no one could inherit while staying in "Greece"—the then Scandinavian term for the Byzantine Empire.


Not that it matters because Hellas is the Greek for Greece whereas Greece is only the English/German for Greece. And, Hellenes is the Greek for Greeks whereas Greeks is only the English/German for Greeks :roll:
User avatar
GreekIslandGirl
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 8944
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:03 am

Re: The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:23 pm

Nikitas wrote: The dead are about equal for the two communities, proving that each gave as good as it got.


Equal number dead would suggest the (17%) "TC community" was some five times more murderous, wouldn't it?
User avatar
GreekIslandGirl
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 8944
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:03 am

Re: The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Postby Paphitis » Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:32 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:
Nikitas wrote: The dead are about equal for the two communities, proving that each gave as good as it got.


Equal number dead would suggest the (17%) "TC community" was some five times more murderous, wouldn't it?


No it just means they had to defend themselves from Greek Militias under Goergiatzis!
User avatar
Paphitis
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 20971
Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 2:06 pm

Re: The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Postby erolz66 » Fri Jan 02, 2015 5:03 pm

As far as numbers killed by each side the following is probably the most authoritative independent estimate. (source http://cyprus-conflict.net/Patrick-chp%203.html )

The period from 21 December 1963 to 10 August 1964 was the most violent phase of the Cypriot conflict. Both communities estimate that several hundred of their members were wounded. In addition, several hundred were kidnapped and temporarily held hostage until exchanges were arranged. Official records show that 191 Turk-Cypriots were known to have been killed and 173 are still missing and now presumed dead. On the Greek-Cypriot side, 133 are known to have been killed and 41 are still missing and presumed dead. It is probable, however, that the figures for Turkish-Cypriot deaths include some who were killed accidentally by their own hand or by other Turk-Cypriots. Greek-Cypriot deaths are probably understated. There are indications that some casualties, for propaganda reasons, were never publicly announced. Also, casualties among Greek Army soldiers in Cyprus are not included in the Cyprus Government's figures. It may be more prudent therefore to accept that approximately 350 Turk-Cypriots were killed in this period while about 200 Greek-Cypriots and mainland Greeks were killed.[5]


and

Between 11 August 1964 and 15 November 1967, records from various authoritative sources indicate that 109 Turkish-Cypriots are known to have been killed. . . . This number probably includes all Turk-Cypriots killed by Greek-Cypriots and the majority of Turk-Cypriots who were killed by members of their own community. Of these known deaths, 52 per cent were caused by Greek-Cypriots and 48 per cent were caused by Turk-Cypriots. Those deaths caused by Greek-Cypriots can be sub-divided into two categories, military incidents and civil incidents.

The first category includes all those Turk-Cypriot deaths involving government security forces (i.e. National Guard and Cyprus Police). It is thus estimated that 32 per cent of all Turk-Cypriot casualties for the period 11 August 1964 to 15 November 1967 can be labelled as military incidents. It should be noted that the majority of all Turk-Cypriot casualties in this category were incurred on 15 November 1967 during the National Guard and Cyprus Police assaults on Ayios Theodhoros and Kophinou.

The second category, civil incidents, includes those Turk-Cypriot deaths caused by Greek-Cypriot civilians. The motives for these murders were quite varied, although the majority of them were related to inter-communal hostility. Often the prevailing inter-communal tension was used as a convenient motive to justify rustling, or robbery during which the victim was killed. Probably 27 per cent of the deaths were accidents caused by Turk-Cypriots. Most of these involved poorly-trained Fighters cleaning or aiming loaded weapons. Another 14 per cent of the Turk-Cypriot deaths were intra-communal murders motivated by such things as domestic quarrels, or disputes over land-owner- ship. Finally, 7 per cent of the Turk-Cypriot deaths were intra-communal murders related to the inter-communal conflict. Such murders included the execution of informers, or the killing of rivals in struggles for local political or military leadership. Apart from accidents and military incidents, a pattern of vendetta killings can be traced in all other categories.

In addition to the 109 known Turkish-Cypriot deaths, 13 Turk-Cypriots who were reported as missing during this period are now presumed dead. The majority, if not all, of these deaths are believed to have been caused by Greek-Cypriots. Six of these incidents occurred during the month following the Kokkina battle when inter-communal hostility was particularly intense. Five Turk-Cypriots disappeared in the Greek-Cypriot area of Ktima on 25 July 1967, and their presumed murder formed part of an inter-communal vendetta which was then being waged in the Paphos District.

The pattern of Greek-Cypriot deaths is less complete since any reliable reports of Greek-Cypriot intra-communal casualties are not available. It is, however, known that during the period under review 15 Greek-Cypriots were killed by Turk-Cypriots. Five of these deaths were caused by Fighters, while the other ten were civil incidents. At least eight of these civil incidents fitted into a pattern of vendetta killings. During the same period, the Cyprus Police alleges that five Greek-Cypriots were abducted by Turk-Cypriots; four of these victims are believed to have been taken along the Green Line in Nicosia.
erolz66
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 1888
Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:31 pm

Re: The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Postby Nikitas » Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:24 pm

ErolZ asks "Where does this figure of 4500 come from ?"

Bulent Ecevit on a live interview on Greek TV in the 1980s. His exact words were "if they had accepted our offer in Geneva [meaning his ultimatum] we would not have had to start Attila II and kill 4500 people".

Satsified as to the reliability of the source now? Look it up.

The GC internal fighting in the first week following the coup left about 100 dead GCs. The attempt to blame on GCs internal conflicts the deaths that occured after August 1974 is beyond disgusting.

Read the Sunday Times Insight reports of September 1974, titled "Something Terrible Happened Here", one of the journalists was named Munir, I presume he was Turkish. There you will see the full glory of "Nato's best". By the time the Turkish troops arrivedin Karpasia there was noGC military presence there. They found the civilians totally defenceless and there they showed us the meaning of Turkish guarantee of security.

One incident, the murder of Androulla Christodoulou, aged 17, in Yalousa tells it all. She refused to submit to rape, she was bayoneted 119 times, according to the UN doctors who took custody of her body. PHotos of her body were published in all leading UK papers and on the BBC and ITN news. See the photo and realise that this was an act AFTER the Turkish army won the battle. It is instructive as to the fate that awaits the civilians at the hands of "NATO's best".

And you want us to agree to a permanent stationing of THIS army on the island post settlement for YOUR security! You sad MFs!
Nikitas
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 7396
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:49 pm

Re: The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Postby bigOz » Sat Jan 03, 2015 12:19 am

What the flucge are you lot talking about? No one disputes murders and rapes took place (just like in any other war) back in 1964 - 51 BLOODY YEARS AGO! Germans raped, killed, burnt in the ovens millions of Jews and that many more French, Russian, Polish, Greek, Americans etc. 40 years later they became best of trading partners and allies!

Just get over yourselves and stop this meaningless animosity and hate preaching. You are only harming yourself!

No need to shoot the messenger either. The "Greek" propaganda expressed by some other Greeks in Wikipedia(!) is OK, but the makers of this documentary, who were GREEK and English historians, are a bunch of liars??? :lol: :lol: :lol:
User avatar
bigOz
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 1225
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:19 am
Location: Girne - Cyprus

Re: The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Postby Paphitis » Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:47 am

Nikitas wrote:ErolZ asks "Where does this figure of 4500 come from ?"

Bulent Ecevit on a live interview on Greek TV in the 1980s. His exact words were "if they had accepted our offer in Geneva [meaning his ultimatum] we would not have had to start Attila II and kill 4500 people".

Satsified as to the reliability of the source now? Look it up.

The GC internal fighting in the first week following the coup left about 100 dead GCs. The attempt to blame on GCs internal conflicts the deaths that occured after August 1974 is beyond disgusting.

Read the Sunday Times Insight reports of September 1974, titled "Something Terrible Happened Here", one of the journalists was named Munir, I presume he was Turkish. There you will see the full glory of "Nato's best". By the time the Turkish troops arrivedin Karpasia there was noGC military presence there. They found the civilians totally defenceless and there they showed us the meaning of Turkish guarantee of security.

One incident, the murder of Androulla Christodoulou, aged 17, in Yalousa tells it all. She refused to submit to rape, she was bayoneted 119 times, according to the UN doctors who took custody of her body. PHotos of her body were published in all leading UK papers and on the BBC and ITN news. See the photo and realise that this was an act AFTER the Turkish army won the battle. It is instructive as to the fate that awaits the civilians at the hands of "NATO's best".

And you want us to agree to a permanent stationing of THIS army on the island post settlement for YOUR security! You sad MFs!


A lot of these murders were at the hands of TCs and sadly this is something the RoC has been trying to cover up for years because they don't want the TCs to look bad.
User avatar
Paphitis
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 20971
Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 2:06 pm

Re: The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Postby Paphitis » Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:49 am

bigOz wrote:What the flucge are you lot talking about? No one disputes murders and rapes took place (just like in any other war) back in 1964 - 51 BLOODY YEARS AGO! Germans raped, killed, burnt in the ovens millions of Jews and that many more French, Russian, Polish, Greek, Americans etc. 40 years later they became best of trading partners and allies!

Just get over yourselves and stop this meaningless animosity and hate preaching. You are only harming yourself!

No need to shoot the messenger either. The "Greek" propaganda expressed by some other Greeks in Wikipedia(!) is OK, but the makers of this documentary, who were GREEK and English historians, are a bunch of liars??? :lol: :lol: :lol:


You started all the shit by referring to the Greek Revolution and you even made stupid claims about Greek Proaganda, and atrocities.

You also claimed that the Greek Ethnos did not exist!
User avatar
Paphitis
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 20971
Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 2:06 pm

Re: The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:02 am

Big Oz, there are a number of English historians who want to demoralise the Greek nation - we do not doubt that, have commented on it often. Their opinions are not facts though. They usually have an agenda such as safeguarding stolen goods like the Parthenon marbles. Another supposed expert was Albanian. Enough said. The wiki information is on corroborated articles (the runes) found in various Scandinavian countries. Those are not opinions. They are facts. Where are the facts in the youtube? Hearsay and opinion, that's all.

However, other than posting the over-long Youtube, you haven't actually pinpointed what is significant about your find. To counter, there are many who suggest the Greeks should have been more ruthless in removing the Ottomans (other nations were tougher against them) - and certainly they did not slaughter to the extent that we know for instance the Ottomans did when they invaded Cyprus and massacred 20,000 in a few days. Also, if Cyprus had not had thousands of priests and leaders slaughtered in 1821 and weakened before they could rise up, then we would have saved a lot of lives through not having the problems that occurred in Cyprus since then - through continued ottoman rule, British rule and now Turkish occupation.
User avatar
GreekIslandGirl
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 8944
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:03 am

Re: The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Postby Paphitis » Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:09 am

GreekIslandGirl wrote:Big Oz, there are a number of English historians who want to demoralise the Greek nation - we do not doubt that, have commented on it often. Their opinions are not facts though. They usually have an agenda such as safeguarding stolen goods like the Parthenon marbles. Another supposed expert was Albanian. Enough said. The wiki information is on corroborated articles (the runes) found in various Scandinavian countries. Those are not opinions. They are facts. Where are the facts in the youtube? Hearsay and opinion, that's all.

However, other than posting the over-long Youtube, you haven't actually pinpointed what is significant about your find. To counter, there are many who suggest the Greeks should have been more ruthless in removing the Ottomans (other nations were tougher against them) - and certainly they did not slaughter to the extent that we know for instance the Ottomans did when they invaded Cyprus and massacred 20,000 in a few days. Also, if Cyprus had not had thousands of priests and leaders slaughtered in 1821 and weakened before they could rise up, then we would have saved a lot of lives through not having the problems that occurred in Cyprus since then - through continued ottoman rule, British rule and now Turkish occupation.


The role of religion was and is overstated. That is just one example of a Myth during the Greek Revolution.

The official stance of the Church was that it had opposed the Greek Revolution and Revolutionaries. In other words, they were bedfellows with the occupying Turks probably because they were being paid with enormous parcels of land as reward.

The Germans knew that in order to unite the illiterate peasants behind the cause, they had to manufacture the nobleness of the Greek Church which was anything but noble!

That is what was claimed by the Greek Documentary from Skai TV.

In addition to this, when King Ludwig sent his Son Otto to establish the Greek Monarch, he became the head of the Greek Orthodox Church because he knew that the Greek Population needed this as a unifier.
User avatar
Paphitis
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 20971
Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 2:06 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Cyprus Problem Solution Proposals

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests