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The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

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Re: The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Postby Sotos » Sat Jan 03, 2015 9:22 am

As far as numbers killed by each side the following is probably the most authoritative independent estimate.


The number and info of the GC missing is also well documented and I don't think anybody questions it. 1600 initially. Now they found many of them in mass graves.
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Re: The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Postby Sotos » Sat Jan 03, 2015 9:28 am

bigOz wrote:What the flucge are you lot talking about? No one disputes murders and rapes took place (just like in any other war) back in 1964 - 51 BLOODY YEARS AGO! Germans raped, killed, burnt in the ovens millions of Jews and that many more French, Russian, Polish, Greek, Americans etc. 40 years later they became best of trading partners and allies!

Just get over yourselves and stop this meaningless animosity and hate preaching. You are only harming yourself!

No need to shoot the messenger either. The "Greek" propaganda expressed by some other Greeks in Wikipedia(!) is OK, but the makers of this documentary, who were GREEK and English historians, are a bunch of liars??? :lol: :lol: :lol:


The documentary was OK... but it seems that the translated subtitles say different things. And the Germans stopped their occupation and gave back what they stole... you continue to occupy what is by over 80% ours and you claim that it now belongs to you! We are also friends with the Egyptians, the Persians, the Italians etc etc who occupied Cyprus in the PAST. If you want to be friends then your occupation of our lands should become a thing of the past also.
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Re: The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Postby erolz66 » Sat Jan 03, 2015 11:13 am

The Times, September 5, 1974, Editorial wrote: Titled "THE MASSACRES IN CYPRUS"

The allegations and counter- allegations of atrocities in Cyprus make doubly depressing reading. They are depressing because there can be no doubt that at least part of what is alleged on both sides is true. Ard they are depressing because the deaths and suffering of innocent people, horrible enough in themselves, are immediately turned into propaganda, embittering the con- flict still further, holding up talks on the humanitarian (let alone political) issues, and quite possibly sowing the seeds of yet further atrocities in the future. The Greeks are much given to labelling the Turks as " barbar- ians "', and the Turks understand- ably feel that this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. As so often in such conflicts, the history of violence and massacre on both sides is too long for it to he worth inquiring who started it. What one can say is that since 1967, and thanks partly to the patient, unspectacular but often dangerous work of the United Nations forces, there had been little or no violence on Cyprus between the two com- munities. Instead, there was growing violence within the Greek community. Eoka B made attempts on Archbishop Makarios's life and kidnapped his ministers. He retaliated by forming the Tactical Reserve Force, which was clearly not tender in its treatment of those whom it arrested. The first reports of massacre and mass graves in this present crisis concerned the treatment of Archbishop Makarios's sup- porters by the Greek-officered National Guard which seized power on July 15. The Turks were not immediately affected. but, given Mr Sampson's record in the incidents of 1963-4, they had good reason to fear that their turn would be next. With the benefit of hindsight it is difficult not to regret that Britain did not intervene at that stage to disarm the National Guard and restore the legal government. Such action could not have revived the old racial passions in the way that a Turkish intervention was bound to do. As soon as the Turks invaded, thousands of Turkish Cypriots were taken hostage by the Greeks, and it can hardly now be doubted that atrocities were committed at this. stage by Greek Cypriots against Turkish Cypriots. It is equally clear that the invading Turkish troops showed little humanity towards the civilian Population. The many stories of murder, rape and looting told by Greek Cypriot refugees from the villages around Kyrenia can hardly have been all pure invention, and the Turks did not improve their case by ordering the United Nations Forces to leave the area. The same pattern was repeated when the Turks launched their second big military operation on August 14. It is significant that this is the date on which the massacre at Maratha is alleged to have taken place; One of the survivors, Mrs Sidika Kemal, has said that she and her husband escaped from Maratha " as soon as they heard that the second Turkish offensive had begun". It was after this, while they were hiding in a cave, that they saw the men of the nearby Greek village come and take the inhabitants away. The massacre, rightly con- demned by the Cyprus Govern- ment "regardless of which side is responsible for it ", must objectively be seen both as a massacre by Greeks and as a consequence of the Turkish offen- sive, and thus casts fresh doubt on the wisdom of that offensive as a means of protecting Turkish Cypriots. President Clerides's govern- ment did well to suggest an independent United Nations inquiry, even though their attempt to suggest that the vic- tims may have been Greeks does not sound very convincing* on evidence produced so far. Cer- tainly they have legitimate grounds for anxiety ahout tha fate of Greeks reported missing in the Turkish-occupied area, ana unlike the Turks they are not in a position to investigate for them- selves and publicize the results. Equally the Turks have legiti. mate grounds for anxiety about Turkish Cypriots in the south. But these anxieties are no reason to hold up talks on the " humani- tarian issues ". Quite the reverse.


For info the times has an offer whereby you can gain access to their archive from 1785-1985 for £1 for the first month. Unfortunately it does not appear to include editions of Sunday Times but may be of interest to any who like to check original sources direct from the source.
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Re: The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Postby erolz66 » Sat Jan 03, 2015 11:18 am

Sotos wrote:
As far as numbers killed by each side the following is probably the most authoritative independent estimate.


The number and info of the GC missing is also well documented and I don't think anybody questions it. 1600 initially. Now they found many of them in mass graves.


Not sure what period you are referring to but it would seem Nikitas is 'questioning' your figure of 1600 and claiming it is actually 4500 based on something allegedly said by Ecevit on Greek TV ? Or have I misunderstood ?
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Re: The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Postby Paphitis » Sat Jan 03, 2015 11:31 am

erolz66 wrote:
Sotos wrote:
As far as numbers killed by each side the following is probably the most authoritative independent estimate.


The number and info of the GC missing is also well documented and I don't think anybody questions it. 1600 initially. Now they found many of them in mass graves.


Not sure what period you are referring to but it would seem Nikitas is 'questioning' your figure of 1600 and claiming it is actually 4500 based on something allegedly said by Ecevit on Greek TV ? Or have I misunderstood ?


The 1600 are only those missing and unaccounted for.

there were 4500 to 5000 confirmed dead as a result of the invasion. Even the CIA factbook mentions this figure.
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Re: The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Postby erolz66 » Sat Jan 03, 2015 11:56 am

Paphitis wrote: Even the CIA factbook mentions this figure.


Does it ?

https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... os/cy.html
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Re: The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Postby bigOz » Sat Jan 03, 2015 12:56 pm

Sotos wrote:
bigOz wrote:What the flucge are you lot talking about? No one disputes murders and rapes took place (just like in any other war) back in 1964 - 51 BLOODY YEARS AGO! Germans raped, killed, burnt in the ovens millions of Jews and that many more French, Russian, Polish, Greek, Americans etc. 40 years later they became best of trading partners and allies!

Just get over yourselves and stop this meaningless animosity and hate preaching. You are only harming yourself!

No need to shoot the messenger either. The "Greek" propaganda expressed by some other Greeks in Wikipedia(!) is OK, but the makers of this documentary, who were GREEK and English historians, are a bunch of liars??? :lol: :lol: :lol:


The documentary was OK... but it seems that the translated subtitles say different things. And the Germans stopped their occupation and gave back what they stole... you continue to occupy what is by over 80% ours and you claim that it now belongs to you! We are also friends with the Egyptians, the Persians, the Italians etc etc who occupied Cyprus in the PAST. If you want to be friends then your occupation of our lands should become a thing of the past also.

Re Sotos I do not know who you are addressing but I happen to be a CYPRIOT born and raised just like my great grandfathers. THIS IS MY LAND TOO! It has never been part of "Greece". On the contrary it was a part of ottoman Empire for near enough 350 years or so. GCs constantly make a mistake of judging land ownership rights by population. TCs owned or had the rights to 30% of land in Cyprus until 1963 attacks started off the war. As Cypriots, they also have right to their own land and separate state if they face threats and extinction by their fellow countrymen led by fanatic mainland Greek supported malicia (EOKA-B).

Your argument about the number of Turks and the fact that they may hold 10% more of the land than they owned pre 1963 will never hold water in any international arena - and your leaders are well aware of it. That is why any Federal plan backed by UN incorporates a state close to 30% of the island! AND for your information, Germans never stopped any occupation OR gave back what they stole - THEY LOST THE BLOODY WAR and their own country became occupied by the allies and Russians for the next 45 years or so!

Also I like to hear how you propose to give back the land belonging to TCs (including more than 100 TC villages) left on the Greek side and occupied by GCs since 1974! I would love to get my hands on some of the 200 donums of wineyards left in Alektora, by my own family! :)
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Re: The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Postby Sotos » Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:46 pm

erolz66 wrote:
Sotos wrote:
As far as numbers killed by each side the following is probably the most authoritative independent estimate.


The number and info of the GC missing is also well documented and I don't think anybody questions it. 1600 initially. Now they found many of them in mass graves.


Not sure what period you are referring to but it would seem Nikitas is 'questioning' your figure of 1600 and claiming it is actually 4500 based on something allegedly said by Ecevit on Greek TV ? Or have I misunderstood ?


Here are the results of the research done by the parliament in 2011: https://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/53377590

The attached documents at the end are lists that contain:

1493 Still missing in 2011 (out of 1600+ in 1974) ( More of them have been found by the Committee on Missing Persons since 2011)

126 more missing whose cases were not submitted to the Committee on Missing Persons. 19 of these cases are marked as "unsubstantiated"

84 Greek soldiers who died during coup/invasion (not specified if it was coup or invasion)

20 Greek Officers who died during coup/invasion (total of 3 lists - army, navy, air force)

1009 Greek Cypriots who died during or as a result of the Turkish invasion

41 Greek Cypriot resistance fighters who died during the coup

36 Names listed as "casualties during the coup". Apparently GC soldiers who were part of the coup

16 Casualties victims of the coup (mostly civilians)

5 Greek soldiers who died during the coup
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Re: The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Postby Maximus » Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:25 pm

bigOz wrote: I happen to be a CYPRIOT born and raised just like my great grandfathers. THIS IS MY LAND TOO! It has never been part of "Greece". On the contrary it was a part of ottoman Empire for near enough 350 years or so. GCs constantly make a mistake of judging land ownership rights by population. TCs owned or had the rights to 30% of land in Cyprus until 1963 attacks started off the war. As Cypriots, they also have right to their own land and separate state if they face threats and extinction by their fellow countrymen led by fanatic mainland Greek supported malicia (EOKA-B).


Make your mind up, are you Cypriot "Greek" or Ottoman "Turk"?

This changes everything to do which your statement.....Just saying.
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Re: The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Sat Jan 03, 2015 7:34 pm

Maximus wrote:
bigOz wrote: I happen to be a CYPRIOT born and raised just like my great grandfathers. THIS IS MY LAND TOO! It has never been part of "Greece". On the contrary it was a part of ottoman Empire for near enough 350 years or so. GCs constantly make a mistake of judging land ownership rights by population. TCs owned or had the rights to 30% of land in Cyprus until 1963 attacks started off the war. As Cypriots, they also have right to their own land and separate state if they face threats and extinction by their fellow countrymen led by fanatic mainland Greek supported malicia (EOKA-B).


Make your mind up, are you Cypriot "Greek" or Ottoman "Turk"?

This changes everything to do which your statement.....Just saying.


The TCs are still stuck in their invader mentality. Harking back to when they ruled over us for 350 years - they never forget what they had and constantly seek to reproduce those "glory days".

Cyprus is Greek and its native people are Greeks, born and bred for thousands of years. We Cypriots continued to BE Greek even under Ottoman rule despite the many attempts to demoralize us natives and tax/kill us out of existence.

We do not want any more attempts at turkification of our island. Turks go back to where your ancestors came from - turkish grandfathers and ottoman great-grandfathers - NONE of THEM were Cypriots and nor are you, so-called "TCs", who still occupy our Greek land!
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