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the agreement is coming

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Re: the agreement is coming

Postby Lordo » Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:17 am

exactly gr which is why bbf is required to protect the tcs.

the rest of your prediction is crap. the tcs will survive and thrive under bbf.
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Re: the agreement is coming

Postby Get Real! » Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:37 am

Lordo wrote:exactly gr which is why bbf is required to protect the tcs.

the rest of your prediction is crap. the tcs will survive and thrive under bbf.

And why should you be protected?

It’s not like there’s anything special about your people right… :?

If you think otherwise please go ahead and entertain us. I'm all ears...
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Re: the agreement is coming

Postby Lordo » Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:00 am

because we can. we dont expect you to protect us, we will protect ourselves. it stands to reason.
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Re: the agreement is coming

Postby boulio » Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:24 am

Get Real! wrote:
boulio wrote:the truth is has anyone really did a analysis that if the tc state was reduces to say 25-27% so you figure 90-100 k gc return to the gc state and the rest get their property rights in the north how many would actually return?someone who is 45 years old was four years old during the invasion basically has no ties to the north,i think that most of those 60-70k who would be entitled to get their properties in the north would most likely(80-90%)sell

That’s not what I predict. The overwhelming majority who also happen to be wealthier will slowly but surely dominate the occupied territory too. They’ll be landlords renting out their rightful properties and the minority will be in need of accommodation and more importantly… work!

Sooner or later the law of numbers and the law of money would speak the loudest there also… (in the eventuality of a “bbf” which I don’t expect will come to pass anyway.)



You maybe correct but I also think there is a other factor that of time 41 years is a long time,it may not be 80-90 %not returning to a north state but it will be over 50% selling and moving on.Lordo that's kikapu point the more territory give back the less people returning.
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Re: the agreement is coming

Postby Nikitas » Thu Jun 25, 2015 3:07 pm

Properties before territory? Fascinating how the course of each round of talks applied the same prioritisation: governance, properties and territory last.

Christofias seemed to be getting the importance of territory when he proposed dealing with that first since it had the chance of solving a major part of the properties issue.

In my opinion territory comes before properties and not only the land area that is involved with real property, but all territorial aspects must be settled in such a way that they leave no room for future disputes. What will happen if the Dhekelia and Akrotiri bases are evacuated by the British is part of that, as is the delimitation of each region's EEZ regardless of whether the exploitation of resources will be a federal matter.

The point is to prevent any gaps in the agreement that will cause future conflict, such as claims on SBA territory. I am sure that all three guarantor powers' military staffs are already working on contingency plans for such events. It is a good idea to stop them at the planning stage and not go through another conflict.

An unambiguous territorial settlement would also put some ice on guys like Soysal who see BBF as a pramble to partition. They will know exactly what they will get if they choose to move that way. They will also know what they will be forfeiting, up front and with an international seal of approval.

As for the permanence of the BBF settlement, that will be under strain from day one by the natural course of daily life. The whole of Cyprus has experienced a demographic shift in the last generation and the cities have become the major centers of population, villages are in decline. The ctiies that offer most employment and business opportunities will attract the population and that will happen regardless of communal origin.
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Re: the agreement is coming

Postby Kikapu » Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:48 pm

Pyrpolizer wrote:
boulio wrote:the truth is has anyone really did a analysis that if the tc state was reduces to say 25-27% so you figure 90-100 k gc return to the gc state and the rest get their property rights in the north how many would actually return?someone who is 45 years old was four years old during the invasion basically has no ties to the north,i think that most of those 60-70k who would be entitled to get their properties in the north would most likely(80-90%)sell


Aha! The question is how would they return when practically all properties are currently in use? For 100K to return there must be relocation of another 100K. The difficulties to return in either the area that would be returned to become GC Fed State or within the TC Fed state are basically the same.
I don't foresee much returning. What I foresee is moving of populations over the years to places where most jobs will be available.That's why I believe BBF is not sustainable. What we should make sure will in no way be violated is the right to property ownership and settlement/residing anywhere in Cyprus.


Even if most GCs cannot return back to their properties, either by choice or because other are living in them, it shouldn't make any difference in readjusting the north’s territory to be much less. So what if 30,000-50,000 TCs remain in the GCs properties but those properties will be in the south state (GC state). If the north expects some GCs to go and live in the north just so not to reduce the north state from where it is today, then why can't the north accept some TCs living in the GC state cause by the reduction of the north state. The sword should be able to cut both ways, no?
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Re: the agreement is coming

Postby Lordo » Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:25 pm

Kikapu wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:
boulio wrote:the truth is has anyone really did a analysis that if the tc state was reduces to say 25-27% so you figure 90-100 k gc return to the gc state and the rest get their property rights in the north how many would actually return?someone who is 45 years old was four years old during the invasion basically has no ties to the north,i think that most of those 60-70k who would be entitled to get their properties in the north would most likely(80-90%)sell


Aha! The question is how would they return when practically all properties are currently in use? For 100K to return there must be relocation of another 100K. The difficulties to return in either the area that would be returned to become GC Fed State or within the TC Fed state are basically the same.
I don't foresee much returning. What I foresee is moving of populations over the years to places where most jobs will be available.That's why I believe BBF is not sustainable. What we should make sure will in no way be violated is the right to property ownership and settlement/residing anywhere in Cyprus.


Even if most GCs cannot return back to their properties, either by choice or because other are living in them, it shouldn't make any difference in readjusting the north’s territory to be much less. So what if 30,000-50,000 TCs remain in the GCs properties but those properties will be in the south state (GC state). If the north expects some GCs to go and live in the north just so not to reduce the north state from where it is today, then why can't the north accept some TCs living in the GC state cause by the reduction of the north state. The sword should be able to cut both ways, no?

fair exchange according to current prices, is true human right european principle an all. no fixing prices to benefit nobody no how and then we shall see what size the territory has to be.
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Re: the agreement is coming

Postby Kikapu » Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:19 am

Lordo wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:
boulio wrote:the truth is has anyone really did a analysis that if the tc state was reduces to say 25-27% so you figure 90-100 k gc return to the gc state and the rest get their property rights in the north how many would actually return?someone who is 45 years old was four years old during the invasion basically has no ties to the north,i think that most of those 60-70k who would be entitled to get their properties in the north would most likely(80-90%)sell


Aha! The question is how would they return when practically all properties are currently in use? For 100K to return there must be relocation of another 100K. The difficulties to return in either the area that would be returned to become GC Fed State or within the TC Fed state are basically the same.
I don't foresee much returning. What I foresee is moving of populations over the years to places where most jobs will be available.That's why I believe BBF is not sustainable. What we should make sure will in no way be violated is the right to property ownership and settlement/residing anywhere in Cyprus.


Even if most GCs cannot return back to their properties, either by choice or because other are living in them, it shouldn't make any difference in readjusting the north’s territory to be much less. So what if 30,000-50,000 TCs remain in the GCs properties but those properties will be in the south state (GC state). If the north expects some GCs to go and live in the north just so not to reduce the north state from where it is today, then why can't the north accept some TCs living in the GC state cause by the reduction of the north state. The sword should be able to cut both ways, no?

fair exchange according to current prices, is true human right european principle an all. no fixing prices to benefit nobody no how and then we shall see what size the territory has to be.


Once the property formulas are worked out in principle on how they will be dealt with, the country should wait a year or so for the property prices to find their true value, and then let exchanges happen at the will of the owners if they wish to do so. The size of the territory of each state has no bearing on the amount of properties owned by the individual. The state sizes should be determined during the negotiations for ALL the reasons Nikitas uses.
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Re: the agreement is coming

Postby Oceanside50 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:30 am

i don't remember an Akinci or a Talat or an Eroglu or any other glu at a family reunion. what right do any of these people have on property owned by Greek Cypriots in the occupied areas? Refugees GC or TC should have the right of return presented to them in any sort of solution, which should be based on European principles and human rights.
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Re: the agreement is coming

Postby Pyrpolizer » Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:04 pm

Kikapu wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:
boulio wrote:the truth is has anyone really did a analysis that if the tc state was reduces to say 25-27% so you figure 90-100 k gc return to the gc state and the rest get their property rights in the north how many would actually return?someone who is 45 years old was four years old during the invasion basically has no ties to the north,i think that most of those 60-70k who would be entitled to get their properties in the north would most likely(80-90%)sell


Aha! The question is how would they return when practically all properties are currently in use? For 100K to return there must be relocation of another 100K. The difficulties to return in either the area that would be returned to become GC Fed State or within the TC Fed state are basically the same.
I don't foresee much returning. What I foresee is moving of populations over the years to places where most jobs will be available.That's why I believe BBF is not sustainable. What we should make sure will in no way be violated is the right to property ownership and settlement/residing anywhere in Cyprus.


Even if most GCs cannot return back to their properties, either by choice or because other are living in them, it shouldn't make any difference in readjusting the north’s territory to be much less. So what if 30,000-50,000 TCs remain in the GCs properties but those properties will be in the south state (GC state). If the north expects some GCs to go and live in the north just so not to reduce the north state from where it is today, then why can't the north accept some TCs living in the GC state cause by the reduction of the north state. The sword should be able to cut both ways, no?


i agree with you Kikapu,it seems to me this BBF thing carries with it a million problems.
Putting a TC hat on my head I'd say it's a matter of viability. How can an 18% Fed State survive under conditions of equality at Federal level when it has to compete with another of 82%?? It won't even be able to raise taxes to pay it's own public servants let aside those she will put at Central Fed..
Putting a TC partitionist hat on my head I would say the more we get the better off we will be after we eventually get rid of the Gcs :wink:

Now putting the Pyro hat back on my head I would say BBF is very unlikely to last for ever, I personally see it as a starting point to an eventual unitary state in which the TCs will secure their equal say in some other ways through some slow democratic process.As long as there are no border lines and anyone can settle anywhere he likes, been under EU law, any number between 18% and 19% :wink: is fine with me. Come on Lordo bull the red flag now :lol: :lol: :lol:
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