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Turkey: Terrorism and Tourism

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Re: Turkey: Terrorism and Tourism

Postby erolz66 » Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:23 am

The authors of the Akritas plan knew the simple truth, that if the 60's agreements had been put to the people of Cyprus in 1959, they would have democratically accepted it. They also knew that tactically doing so would not have help the hidden agenda to

akritas plan wrote: to create the impression that the agreement reached was not the result of a free and voluntary acceptance of a compromise of the conflicting views;


As far as pressure was put on Makarios to sign the agreements, by far and away the most effective external pressure that was put on him was that from Greece.

Maximus wrote:Indeed, you don't call people to ratify a blackmail.

Blackmails dont go to referendum.


So all Tsparis in Greece has to do now is agree a deal with the other EZ members. Get the money, not hold a referendum and then simply declare the agreement null and void.
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Re: Turkey: Terrorism and Tourism

Postby Tim Drayton » Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:45 am

Jerry wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:
Jerry wrote:... that's the price you pay for re-electing a neo-ottoman nazi sultan.


I would never condone the loss of innocent life, but this is probably also the price of getting rid of him.


I agree Tim, obviously Erdogan values his position as being more important than human life or his country's tourist industry. He must have realised what the consequences would have been but carried on regardless.


The situation is, I think, that:

1. Erdoğan does not expect a coalition to emerge from the current negotiations and is premising his strategy on fresh elections being held in the autumn,
2. He believes that an atmosphere of chaos and violence will encourage voters to return to the AKP, perceived to be the party that can restore order, and
3. He is now courting the votes of the ultranationalist MHP by tearing up the peace accord with the PKK/HDP and instead restarting the disastrous civil war of the 80's and 90's.

These are the acts of a desperate and possibly deranged man, and I agree that he bears ultimate responsibility for all of the recent bloodshed.
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Re: Turkey: Terrorism and Tourism

Postby Jerry » Tue Aug 11, 2015 10:17 am

erolz66 wrote:
As far as pressure was put on Makarios to sign the agreements, by far and away the most effective external pressure that was put on him was that from Greece.


I think Selwyn Lloyd's pressure was quite effective too:-

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=LPN ... us&f=false
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Re: Turkey: Terrorism and Tourism

Postby Sotos » Tue Aug 11, 2015 10:35 am

The authors of the Akritas plan knew the simple truth, that if the 60's agreements had been put to the people of Cyprus in 1959, they would have democratically accepted it.


There is nothing "democratic" when something is accepted after a blackmail, either if the leaders are the ones being blackmailed or the people are the ones blackmailed. Because if nobody was blackmailed then clearly those agreements would not pass from neither the leadership nor the people. The situation in Greece is different because other countries are not obligated to give money to them so they can ask the Greeks "you have to do X in order to give you our money or else we will not". But in our case all we wanted from the foreigners was to fuck off. If anything they are the ones who owned to us, for exploiting our island for so many years... we didn't own anything to them and they couldn't have any valid demands from us about how we run our own island. They threatened us with ethnic cleansing to force us to accept their terms!
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Re: Turkey: Terrorism and Tourism

Postby erolz66 » Tue Aug 11, 2015 10:46 am

Jerry wrote:
erolz66 wrote:
As far as pressure was put on Makarios to sign the agreements, by far and away the most effective external pressure that was put on him was that from Greece.


I think Selwyn Lloyd's pressure was quite effective too:-

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=LPN ... us&f=false


Yet the source you quote says under the pressure from Selwyn Lloyd, Makrios' response was no. What changed the no into a yes was Makarios' overnight discussions with Karmanlis ? They both put pressure on him, but from your own source the one that was effective in changing his no to a yes was that from Greece.
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Re: Turkey: Terrorism and Tourism

Postby Sotos » Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:54 am

erolz66 wrote:
Jerry wrote:
erolz66 wrote:
As far as pressure was put on Makarios to sign the agreements, by far and away the most effective external pressure that was put on him was that from Greece.


I think Selwyn Lloyd's pressure was quite effective too:-

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=LPN ... us&f=false


Yet the source you quote says under the pressure from Selwyn Lloyd, Makrios' response was no. What changed the no into a yes was Makarios' overnight discussions with Karmanlis ? They both put pressure on him, but from your own source the one that was effective in changing his no to a yes was that from Greece.


Karmanlis was obviously also pressured to accept it earlier. Why else do you think Greece would ever accept such thing if not as a compromise under pressure?
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Re: Turkey: Terrorism and Tourism

Postby Jerry » Tue Aug 11, 2015 12:03 pm

erolz66 wrote:
Jerry wrote:
erolz66 wrote:
As far as pressure was put on Makarios to sign the agreements, by far and away the most effective external pressure that was put on him was that from Greece.


I think Selwyn Lloyd's pressure was quite effective too:-

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=LPN ... us&f=false


Yet the source you quote says under the pressure from Selwyn Lloyd, Makrios' response was no. What changed the no into a yes was Makarios' overnight discussions with Karmanlis ? They both put pressure on him, but from your own source the one that was effective in changing his no to a yes was that from Greece.



Nice try but Britain was the only power that could enforce partition. Karamanlis was no doubt effectively reminding Makarios of the fact.
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Re: Turkey: Terrorism and Tourism

Postby Paphitis » Tue Aug 11, 2015 12:15 pm

erolz66 wrote:
Jerry wrote:
erolz66 wrote:
As far as pressure was put on Makarios to sign the agreements, by far and away the most effective external pressure that was put on him was that from Greece.


I think Selwyn Lloyd's pressure was quite effective too:-

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=LPN ... us&f=false


Yet the source you quote says under the pressure from Selwyn Lloyd, Makrios' response was no. What changed the no into a yes was Makarios' overnight discussions with Karmanlis ? They both put pressure on him, but from your own source the one that was effective in changing his no to a yes was that from Greece.


Your argument doesn't hold water and I will explain why.

You argue that Makarios signed a treaty. Yes that is the case, but under duress! The degrees of duress vary and range from political blackmail, and even threatening to reveal Makarios' alleged Gay encounters with other men, which it is eluded to by British Intelligence which it is said had evidence of such shenanigans whilst having him under their surveillance.

Your argument about Greece forcing Makarios to accept the treaty is also on shaky ground. Greece, or any other country for that matter should not be interfering or forcing Makarios' hand to accept something that is unacceptable to the Cypriot People. Did Greece blackmail Makarios? In all likelihood YES. They threatened Makarios as well, by telling him that he will be in this ON HIS OWN! Maybe Greece was also politically blackmailed. Either way, it's just not right and there are many legal arguments that can be presented against the Treaty in order to challenge its validity.

Either way, you got to ask if the Cypriot People found the agreement acceptable. The answer is most likely they would not.

But even if you still assert that the Treaty still stands, the GC side can argue that it doesn't and there would be legal grounds for this based on the violations of Turkey against the Treaty of Guarantee and its longstanding violation against international law, Geneva Conventions for occupied lands and colonization of occupied land, not to mention the numerous War Crimes committed against the GC people, the violation of their property rights, and of course Ethnic Cleansing.
Last edited by Paphitis on Tue Aug 11, 2015 12:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Turkey: Terrorism and Tourism

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Tue Aug 11, 2015 12:20 pm

Maximus wrote:Anyway, lets not derail this thread and get back to Turkey's terrorism problem.


Turkey is now battling a chaotic mix of the PKK, Marxist militants and Islamic State while dealing with a huge influx of Syrian refugees and foreign fighters transiting its territory on the way to Syria. At the same time, the government is trying to promote, train and equip moderate rebels to fight Syrian President Bashar al-Assad’s regime.


A good analysis, from Wall St. J., of the multiple terrorist threats that have been brewing in Turkey:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-consula ... 1439196354
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Re: Turkey: Terrorism and Tourism

Postby Lordo » Tue Aug 11, 2015 12:58 pm

if makarios did not accept the terms it was the tcs wish to go their own way. if gcs were civilised people they would have respected the wishes of the tcs and agree to division thereby avoiding all the killings since then. but no, the gcs were greedy and wanted the whole island to be enosised to greace. you see despite what you hear greed is not god, greed is bad.
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