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new bit of information

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Re: new bit of information

Postby Sotos » Wed Aug 26, 2015 9:46 am

And the first ones to come and the culture they developed can be said to be 'native' to Cyprus. Thus Greek culture is not native to Cyprus any more than Turkish culture which came later, or Maori culture is to New Zealand. To claim they are is to just distort the meaning of the word native. Still denying that a dictionary defines the meaning of a word in a given language when your 'narrative' requires you to do so is nothing new for you is it Sotos ?


If we follow your logic then no ethnic group (not to be confused with race) today would be native because humans existed for 100.000 years and ethnic groups that exist today did not exist until a few thousand years ago max! We are probably the most ancient ethnic group that still exists of our whole region and probably the whole Europe. Only maybe in remote isolated regions that not a lot of migrations happened you can maybe find older ethnic groups. Your logic seems just an excuse for Colonialism and would bring us to the ridiculous conclusion that an ethnic group that lived in a place for 1000s of years is as native as immigrants or Settlers that arrived yesterday!!!

It also yet again highlights how your whole world view is defined by the needs of your narrative.


I didn't say that your uncle was with 100% certainty killed by TMT. I didn't say that innocent TCs were not killed by GCs. I just ASKED if you are certain that it was GCs that killed him because it is a fact that TMT killed TCs that did not support segregation. Do you refuse this fact? Are you going to argue that all innocent TCs killed were killed by GCs and that TMT never had anything to do with that? Are you going to argue that similar things didn't happen to GCs? Are you going to argue that TMT was not in favor of segregation and that it was all GCs fault? If that is what you believe then you are the one who would selectively see things to serve a narrative that is not true!

The 'who started it' game as you call it is the wrong question. The question is do we want to STOP it or do we want to just keep perpetuating it. Which do you want Sotos ?


To stop it of course... but the question is how and when? Obviously it would suit you to stop when you are at nearly your maximum gains, and it would suit us to stop it when we are at nearly our maximum gains. If we stop it now when Turkey is powerful and Greece at its lowest the result will obviously not be good for us unless you show the will to compromise on something that is fair and it is not based on the current balance of power. I hope you understand what I am saying here.

And is that how you see it when a TC poster posts that the Ottomans should have done a better job of wiping out Greek culture in Cyprus and if they had we would not have a Cyprus problem today ? That such is just a passive neutral description of the 'ugly truth' of invasion and subjugation of peoples as it occurred in 1571 onwards ? Or would you see it somewhat different in that context ?


I am not talking about a genocide! I am talking about doing as much as it is needed to win the war. And I a talking about a defending your country... not about building an empire.
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Re: new bit of information

Postby erolz66 » Wed Aug 26, 2015 1:30 pm

Sotos wrote:..... that an ethnic group that lived in a place for 1000s of years is as native as immigrants or Settlers that arrived yesterday!!!


So we finally get to an actual reality. Nativeness is a matter of degrees. Yet no GC here, yourself included, talks of GC being more native to Cyprus that TC. They all talk, constantly and incessantly and relentlessly in absolutes - GC are black and white 100% 'native' to Cyprus and TC are 100% black and white NOT native but are instead 'invaders'. They talk in such absolutes not because such absolutes are a reflection of actual reality but because doing so suits their narratives needs.

Sotos wrote: I didn't say that your uncle was with 100% certainty killed by TMT. I didn't say that innocent TCs were not killed by GCs. I just ASKED if you are certain that it was GCs that killed him because it is a fact that TMT killed TCs that did not support segregation. Do you refuse this fact? Are you going to argue that all innocent TCs killed were killed by GCs and that TMT never had anything to do with that? Are you going to argue that similar things didn't happen to GCs? Are you going to argue that TMT was not in favor of segregation and that it was all GCs fault? If that is what you believe then you are the one who would selectively see things to serve a narrative that is not true!


Follow the line of the discussion here. I asked Nikitas if it was a 'facet of respect' to "Tell TC that those innocents murdered pre 74 was because they were descendants of Ottoman invaders in 1571 and thus 'had it comming',". To which maximus responds with "How innocent were these innocent people if their politics was racist and supportive of apartheid?", with the built in and untrue assertion that there was no such thing as an 'innocent TC' in this period because ALL of them 'supported racist and apartheid' politics. When I respond to this by giving an example of TC who was murdered in this period and who clearly by his actions did NOT support attempts to segregate and separate TC and yet who was murdered all the same, you then chip in with "am I sure he was killed by GC and not TMT as TMT often murdered such TC". This then is the line of the discussion.

Every single time I have related what happened to my uncle here on this forum and there have been quite a few times, literally EVERY single time, it has been met by "he must have been a TMT terrorist himself" or "how do you know he was killed by GC" or some such variant. My uncles story is unusual in terms of discussing it here in the sense that in his case, unlike so many others, there is a contemporary record of it in a form that this viewable here by anyone who can be bothered to register with the cyprus-mail website. http://archives.cyprus-mail.com/2003/05 ... -the-past/ This record recounts the words of a GC, Andreas Demetriou. What is more a GC who is a doctor and a former Director of Research and Publications at the House of Representatives. Someone who knew my uncle and knew what had befallen him, first hand. From that article

Her young husband [my uncle] had been working at Barclays Bank, defying the orders of the Turkish Cypriot leadership not to mix or work with Greek Cypriots at the time.But in a cruelly ironic twist of fate, Greek Cypriots abducted him and killed him, ....


and in the words of Dr Andreas Demetriou himself

“The poor man [my uncle] wanted the well-being of his family; he had a good job, he was a white collar worker for Barclays Bank.


and

“I remember, the murder was condemned by all the people in Famagusta at the time,” Demetriou told the Sunday Mail. “And we couldn’t go out and speak against it because we were truly afraid for our lives.” “But no more,” he said. “Now, we have to speak out.”


Not only have I been met on this forum every single time I have related my uncles story here with "he must have been a TMT terrorist" or "there can be no such thing as an innocent TC, as they all supported the politics of division and separation" or " how do you know it was GC who murdered him and not TC", I have also been met, every single time and as you yourself Sotos do again here, with " do you deny that any TC ever killed another TC" or "do you deny that there were TC with an agenda of segregation an division" or variants like "what happened to your uncle does not excuse or justify the enforced partition of Cyprus in 74" despite the FACT that I have REPEATEDLY and EXPLICITLY accepted and acknowledged here that there were murders of TC by other TC and that there were TC who supported an agenda of division and separation in and of itself and outside of events like these and were prepared to use illegal violence against innocents to achieve it and that what befell my uncle and other TC in this period does NOT excuse or legitimise the enforced division of Cyprus in 74. I have not just said these things once or rarely - I have said them repeatedly.

What happened to my uncle is ONE truth about Cyprus in that period. I do not say and have never said it is the ONLY truth. However it is a truth that cuts to the core of the persistent and relentless black and white assertion by the majority of GC here that the mass movement by TC into enclaves in this period and their remaining in them as much as possible was overwhelmingly motivated by a desire for and pursuit of the separation and division of Cyprus or the fear of violence from those TC who did seek such. The real truth is much closer too, not in my words, but in the words of Canadian scholar Richard A. Patrick, who was an officer in UNFICYP in the late 1960s and pursued his interest in the Cyprus conflict as a doctoral student in political geography at the London School of Economics and who's "meticulous" work on this is "considered among the most authoritative accounts of the period.

"The author's investigations reveal that the overwhelming majority of Turk-Cypriot refugees moved only after Turk-Cypriots had been killed, abducted or harrassed by Greek-Cypriots within their village, quarter, or in the local vicinity. Most refugees expected to return to their homes within a few months at the most, and it was this assumption of an early return that facilitated their departure in the first place."


The standard GC narrative requires that TC fled their homes in this period because they were either rabid fanatical supporters of separation and division in Cyprus and did so in pursuit of this agenda or as a result of fear from those TC who were and that any TC. This is presented, persistently, relentlessly as THE truth, the ONLY truth or the overwhelming truth by many here, yourself included Sotos. As I have said before that this is done so consistently and persistently and absolutely here by so many GC is of no surprise to me. The point is when you (individually and collectively) do so and then talk of and expect 'respect' you are just living in a cloud cuckoo land as far as such expectations go. Dr Andreas Demetriou has my respect, as a fellow Cypriot and a fellow human being, for having the courage to speak A truth (not the the only truth but a truth) about Cyprus in this period. Those of you who relentlessly, persistently and repeatedly can only respond to this truth within the boundaries of their narratives requirements, a group I consider you to be in Sotos, do not. That is my point.
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Re: new bit of information

Postby Lordo » Wed Aug 26, 2015 1:54 pm

we are now living in 2015. anybody who still refuses to see the truth of what happened in the 60s and the 70s despite all the access to information without censorship is an asshole. period.
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Re: new bit of information

Postby Sotos » Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:56 pm

So we finally get to an actual reality. Nativeness is a matter of degrees.

OK I accept that... but that degree needs to be over a threshold to be deserving of the name "native". Otherwise it would be like saying that there is no such thing as cold water, just hot water of various degrees. In general people that colonized foreign to them territories at about the same time that Turks came to Cyprus are not considered "natives" yet.

Every single time I have related what happened to my uncle here on this forum and there have been quite a few times, literally EVERY single time, it has been met by "he must have been a TMT terrorist himself" or "how do you know he was killed by GC" or some such variant.


I only ASKED because I didn't know the story of your uncle. Either I never read it before or it was so long time ago that I forgot.

The standard GC narrative requires that TC fled their homes in this period because they were either rabid fanatical supporters of separation and division in Cyprus and did so in pursuit of this agenda or as a result of fear from those TC who were.


It is not exactly like that. Those TCs who were in favor of separation would attack GCs, and then GCs would retaliate against other TCs. So yes the GCs did many of the attacks, but do you think that your leadership didn't know that GCs would retaliate? I think they knew and it suited their aim perfectly.
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Re: new bit of information

Postby Mustiejodu » Wed Aug 26, 2015 3:10 pm

Lordo wrote:we are now living in 2015. anybody who still refuses to see the truth of what happened in the 60s and the 70s despite all the access to information without censorship is an asshole. period.


100% correct lordo . What I can't understand is the Armenians are taking Turkey to court claiming genocide and in some countries it's illegal to claim it was not .why don't we take the Greeks to court for genocide ?
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Re: new bit of information

Postby Maximus » Wed Aug 26, 2015 3:24 pm

Mustiejodu wrote:
Lordo wrote:we are now living in 2015. anybody who still refuses to see the truth of what happened in the 60s and the 70s despite all the access to information without censorship is an asshole. period.


100% correct lordo . What I can't understand is the Armenians are taking Turkey to court claiming genocide and in some countries it's illegal to claim it was not .why don't we take the Greeks to court for genocide ?


Because lies and propaganda do not stand or count as evidence in a court of law.

Why dont the TC's accept existing legal verdicts to end the occupation, respect universal human rights principles and return peoples property?
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Re: new bit of information

Postby Lordo » Wed Aug 26, 2015 4:53 pm

only yesterday they pulled out two unarmed innocent tcs civillians bring food to their family becasue the gcs in their village would not sell them food, buried with their car that went missing in christmas day 1963 you stupid idiot. have you no furquin shame. get stuffed you brainless stupid excuse for a human being.
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Re: new bit of information

Postby Get Real! » Wed Aug 26, 2015 4:58 pm

Lordo wrote:only yesterday they pulled out two unarmed innocent tcs civillians bring food to their family becasue the gcs in their village would not sell them food, buried with their car that went missing in christmas day 1963 you stupid idiot. have you no furquin shame. get stuffed you brainless stupid excuse for a human being.

Their parents should've taken the opportunity they were given by the Brits to relocate to Turkey back in 1922 (like 10,000 others did)... they got your people to SIGN that if they stayed in Cyprus they would waiver Turkishness. Unfortunately those that stayed LIED...
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Re: new bit of information

Postby Lordo » Thu Aug 27, 2015 12:18 am

how can you waiver what you are. have you been takin stupid pills again. you mean terggish nationality surely. that we did. i see nothing dishonest about that.

if you wanted to join greace, you should have manned up and declared your intention honestly. give the tcs a chance to decide what to do. and when they voted to join you, you should have accepted a fair exchange to move all the tcs to one part of the island and separate like civilised people and go our own way. unfortunately your lot behaved like the worst psychoticism ever and demanded that tcs joined you in your enosising and of course the rest is history. i hope you now have learnt how to be civilised. if you wan a go your own way go now.

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Re: new bit of information

Postby Nikitas » Thu Aug 27, 2015 4:04 pm

Erol,

Re respect, several times in past posts, I mentioned the legitimate security concerns of the TC community precisely because of the 1963 intercommunal conflict and their enclosure in enclaves. Whether these enclaves were also benefitting TMT aims is irrelevant. The fact is that the TCs were virtual prisoners in these areas.

I will go one further and say that the experiences of the TC community between 1963 and 1968 when the enclave exclusion was one way lifted (TCs moved in and out, GCs were kept out) justify the Bizonal part of this BBF thing.

Now we get to the respect part. If after getting the bizonality your security concerns might warrant, how does that counterbalance the ethnic cleansing of 200 000 GCs from their ancestral land? How does it justify a continued and institutionalised apartheid in the proposed settlement? How does that excuse the naturalisation of thousands of imported colonists who were never refugees, since these people came from settled areas of Turkey and have been imported for what reason exactly?

Lordo talks about 200 000 foreigners in the south.Yes, foreigners, with residence permits who have no right of naturalisation, who do not vote, and who get no rights on TC property. Their presence does not affect the demographics of the island nor the rights of its citizens. Attempting to equate the one with the other is a typical cynical Turkish response, the kind that shows lack of respect.

Glossing over the concerns of the other community with glib slogans is lack of respect. The GCs suffered thosuands more casualties at the hands of the Turkish army and have legitimate reasons not to see them remain after a solution. Yet these concerns are treated by the TCs as way less important than their obsession with bizonality. It inevitably leads to the question why this happens. And one logical interpretation is that the TCs consider themselves superior, to the rest of the inhabitants of the island. And their behavior towards the other communities, who in no way initiated any hostilities with the TCs, the Armenians, Maronites, Latins, Roma, supports this inference. The properties of these communities were "nationalised" in the north, their religious sites equally badly treated with the Orthodox ones. Apparently for the TCs it is an offence to be a non Turk.

In the final count, anything not Turkish, has been disrespected to the utmost since 1974. In view of this maybe the rest of us have a legitimate reason to ask the TCs to prove they are Cypriots before we commit to any agreement.
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