Cyprus-Forum.com

[Sotos]

Come on Sotos. I voted labour in the UK in the 80's but that does not mean I supported Tony Blair sending British troops to Iraq under the pretext of 'weapons of mass destruction' that were never found because they did not exist, or a multitude of other things that 'leadership' did whilst in power. A 'leadership' is NOT the same thing as the people who empower that leadership. That I should even have to 'explain' this here is testament to the state we are in.

Erolz, we are not talking about minor issues or issues that the TCs were not aware of when choosing their leadership. We are talking about the most important issue that the TC leadership handled and it was a position they followed for many years. The TCs were fully aware of the position of their leadership and they backed them.

Yes Sotos because the calls at that time from TC in response to GC calls for enosis' were not just for 'partition' but for 'enforced division of Cyprus and the forced removal of 200,000 GC so we can steal their homes' , were they ? You can not separate the TC calls for 'partition' in the 50's and 60's from GC calls for 'enosis' - the two are inseparably bound together.

Are you suggesting that there could be partition without the ethnic cleansing? How? And partition was linked to enosis because the Turkish side made this link. It doesn't mean that the enosis cause justified the Turkish side to demand what is essentially ethnic cleansing and mass human rights violations.

And do you seriously think that the President publicly denouncing the the plan and emotively calling for people to not vote for it had NO effect ?

The effect would have been the same regardless if Papadopoulos was the president or not. People do not vote based on what the President tells them. Some people vote based on what their party tells them but being president does not grand you any additional "sheep".

You tell me Sotos you want a unified Cyprus where it does not matter if you are TC or GC or any other kind of Cypriot. I tell you I want the same thing. Neither of us can alone 'make that happen', we do not control it.

Most GCs want the same thing also. But most TCs don't. The TCs don't want "unified Cyprus and equal Cypriots" they want "equal Greek and Turkish communities"... I hope you understand how different the two things are.

Now look at us HERE on this forum. Tell me, in all honesty, that how you react to a post and what is said in a post, what your instinctive gut reaction is, is NOT defined by if that post is made by a TC or a GC.

Actually it isn't. Kikapu is a TC and I agree with him more often that I do with GR, GIG, Paphitis and many other GC members. What you probably want to say is that I never agree with those that promote the usual Turkish position. No I don't, because it is always totally one sided with lots of exaggerations and often lies. And I can't waste my time trying to talk reason with people like Lordo so I respond to them in the language they understand.

[Paphitis]

Who is the stupid idiot that said Maoris are not native to New Zealand?

I suppose the same applies to Aborigines. They are not native to Australia even though there is evidence that suggests that suggests they have been in Australia for 45,000 years.

I mean really, you couldn't pick any worse examples than this to say Cypriots (Greek Cypriots) are not native.

[erolz66]

That old classic is unfortunately the reality... it is not an illusion. In the Ottoman times it was Christians vs Muslims and after that it was Greeks vs Turks. This is not some division we just have in our minds... It is a real division backed by laws. And today we are still at war. That war is Greeks vs Turks. And the negotiations are again Greeks vs Turks. So I am not shocked at what Piratis wrote because another war between us in the future given the circumstances wouldn't be a huge surprise... and maybe this is not the case for you, but most of us are army reserves. I have a G3 in my home and I am supposed to use it if it becomes necessary!

Let us say for a moment that I believe and accept your thesis above and I do not see it as a ridiculous attempt to 'defend' piratis' position simply because he is GC and lets say I ignore the glaring contradiction between you claiming that you want a united Cyprus where it does not matter if you are TC or GC or any other kind of Cypriot and the thesis above. Lets say that I accept that 'today we are still are at war, a war between Greeks and Turks, that has ranged across time and continents. Lets say I truly believe this. Why then would not a sane and rational response to the 'Cyprus problem' as it exits today from me not be 'yes we are at war and in war terrible things happen and there are casualties, to the victor the spoils. You lost the last round in Cyprus. You lost the previous round in Anatolia and you won the one before that in Greece. Nothing more to be said except see you in the next round' ?

[erolz66]

Erolz, we are not talking about minor issues or issues that the TCs were not aware of when choosing their leadership. We are talking about the most important issue that the TC leadership handled and it was a position they followed for many years. The TCs were fully aware of the position of their leadership and they backed them.

Like going to war on a false pretence is a minor issue. Just what position did you expect the TC leadership to take, given that we murdered those TC that spoke out in favour of building a Cyprus where it did not matter if you are GC or TC, just as you murdered those GC that did likewise in this period? One that supported enosis ? Or do you think the TYC community should have decided to have no leadership in this period at all. When I 'empowered' labour in the UK and the 80's it was because they were the least bad choice of a very bad set of choices. What choice at all did the TC community have in Cyprus in this period. Get real!

Are you suggesting that there could be partition without the ethnic cleansing? How? And partition was linked to enosis because the Turkish side made this link. It doesn't mean that the enosis cause justified the Turkish side to demand what is essentially ethnic cleansing and mass human rights violations.

An agreed partition, with agreed population and land exchanges would not have been ethnic cleansing and mass human rights violation. I thought we had agreed that as far as GC chose to persue a future that denied the possibility of a Cyprus with equal Cypriots, that resistance to that by TC was a resistance embedded in the principals of the right to self determination.

Most GCs want the same thing also. But most TCs don't. The TCs don't want "unified Cyprus and equal Cypriots" they want "equal Greek and Turkish communities"... I hope you understand how different the two things are.

Do you understand how different a 'unified Cyprus and equal Cypriots' is from 'Cyprus as a region of a unified greater Greece and equal Greeks' ?

Actually it isn't. Kikapu is a TC and I agree with him more often that I do with GR, GIG, Paphitis and many other GC members. What you probably want to say is that I never agree with those that promote the usual Turkish position. No I don't, because it is always totally one sided with lots of exaggerations and often lies. And I can't waste my time trying to talk reason with people like Lordo so I respond to them in the language they understand.

You are lying to yourself Sotos. You claim to want a Cyprus where it does not matter if you are TC or GC yet how you behave here in regards to others is solely defined by that difference. If someone espouses a TC perspective you behave one way (so yes you would and did treat Bananiot as a TC when he was here), if they espouse a GC one (as Kikapu often does) you behave in a different way. There is a fundamental contradiction between what you tell yourself you want and how you behave. This is not about challenging the 'usual Turkish position' - I do not represent the 'usual Turkish position' at all - my differences with orthodox TC narrative are legion and in some cases fundamental, yet you do not treat me the same here as you treat GiG or GR or Paphitis or Piratis or (kikapu). If you really think you do then you really are lying to yourself.

[erolz66]

Who is the stupid idiot that said Maoris are not native to New Zealand?

That would have been me. That the Maori people came to new zealand from Polynesia and conquered and subjugated and ultimately replace the people and culture that was already there before them is a history embedded in the core of Maori culture itself and corroborated by all sort of other evidence.

I suppose the same applies to Aborigines. They are not native to Australia even though there is evidence that suggests that suggests they have been in Australia for 45,000 years.

No the same is not true of Australian aboriginal people. There is no history of them arriving from outside Australia and conquering and subjugating and ultimately replacing a prior people that was there before them, not in their culture itself or in other forms of evidence. All the evidence is, is that they were indeed the first people and culture to arrive in Australia and can truly be said to be native to Australia, unlike some others who so vociferously and loudly make that claim for themselves where they are on much less solid grounds.

[Paphitis]

Who is the stupid idiot that said Maoris are not native to New Zealand?

That would have been me. That the Maori people came to new zealand from Polynesia and conquered and subjugated and ultimately replace the people and culture that was already there before them is a history embedded in the core of Maori culture itself and corroborated by all sort of other evidence.

I suppose the same applies to Aborigines. They are not native to Australia even though there is evidence that suggests that suggests they have been in Australia for 45,000 years.

No the same is not true of Australian aboriginal people. There is no history of them arriving from outside Australia and conquering and subjugating and ultimately replacing a prior people that was there before them, not in their culture itself or in other forms of evidence. All the evidence is, is that they were indeed the first people and culture to arrive in Australia and can truly be said to be native to Australia, unlike some others who so vociferously and loudly make that claim for themselves where they are on much less solid grounds.

Well Erolz, the Polynesian Migrations have occurred from a particular isolated island, but that does not mean that they are not native to the other islands they migrated to, including New Zealand.

But since this debate is starting to border the ridiculous, there is a theory that the Greeks were responsible for discovering New Zealand. It sounds pretty good to me. There is also a theory that Greeks were the first to settle, making New Zealand Greek.

Oh, I just found out that the same Greek Flotilla did in actual fact discover Australia too. There is a rock inscription of Australia carved in Ancient Greek on a rock in New Zealand.

It's quite amazing that the Maritime ingenuity of Greeks might have taken them as far away as New Zealand.

How about that huh? Maybe some Aliens abducted a few Greeks and transported them all the way to New Zealand. Sounds plausible to me and a lot more interesting than the nonsense in this thread.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/6624320 ... first-book

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-M%C4% ... d_theories

[Sotos]

That old classic is unfortunately the reality... it is not an illusion. In the Ottoman times it was Christians vs Muslims and after that it was Greeks vs Turks. This is not some division we just have in our minds... It is a real division backed by laws. And today we are still at war. That war is Greeks vs Turks. And the negotiations are again Greeks vs Turks. So I am not shocked at what Piratis wrote because another war between us in the future given the circumstances wouldn't be a huge surprise... and maybe this is not the case for you, but most of us are army reserves. I have a G3 in my home and I am supposed to use it if it becomes necessary!

Let us say for a moment that I believe and accept your thesis above and I do not see it as a ridiculous attempt to 'defend' piratis' position simply because he is GC and lets say I ignore the glaring contradiction between you claiming that you want a united Cyprus where it does not matter if you are TC or GC or any other kind of Cypriot and the thesis above. Lets say that I accept that 'today we are still are at war, a war between Greeks and Turks, that has ranged across time and continents. Lets say I truly believe this. Why then would not a sane and rational response to the 'Cyprus problem' as it exits today from me not be 'yes we are at war and in war terrible things happen and there are casualties, to the victor the spoils. You lost the last round in Cyprus. You lost the previous round in Anatolia and you won the one before that in Greece. Nothing more to be said except see you in the next round' ?

Isn't this what is going to eventually happen if we don't find a fair solution? Those who don't want that should do their best to find a fair solution... but we can't fully normalize our relations because until that happens the prospect of war remains the same.

[Sotos]

Like going to war on a false pretence is a minor issue. Just what position did you expect the TC leadership to take, given that we murdered those TC that spoke out in favour of building a Cyprus where it did not matter if you are GC or TC, just as you murdered those GC that did likewise in this period? One that supported enosis ? Or do you think the TYC community should have decided to have no leadership in this period at all. When I 'empowered' labour in the UK and the 80's it was because they were the least bad choice of a very bad set of choices. What choice at all did the TC community have in Cyprus in this period. Get real!

I am sorry Erolz but I refuse to accept that a small community would repeatedly fail to choose a leadership that would represent the views of the majority of TCs on the most important issue. If it was like that then how representative would be the TC leader today when a large percentage of the voters are not even TCs? It would mean that is a waste of time negotiating with any leader you elect and we could just pick some TC at random and negotiate with him instead!

An agreed partition, with agreed population and land exchanges would not have been ethnic cleansing and mass human rights violation. I thought we had agreed that as far as GC chose to persue a future that denied the possibility of a Cyprus with equal Cypriots, that resistance to that by TC was a resistance embedded in the principals of the right to self determination.

Erolz, we never agreed to such things that you claim. You said that you were trying to be objective but I don't see that. GCs would never agree to partition and the only way that the Turks could achieve it is by ethnic cleansing and mass human rights violations.

Do you understand how different a 'unified Cyprus and equal Cypriots' is from 'Cyprus as a region of a unified greater Greece and equal Greeks' ?

Technically even as part of Greece Cypriots would be equal to each other. It wouldn't be like Ottoman rule that by law the people were divided into Muslims and Christians. But in any case what I am talking about is today, not the 50s and 60s. Today, nearly no GC wants union with Greece. What the great majority of GCs want is a unified independent Cyprus where all Cypriots are equal. Even if you disagree with our past choices you can't demand that history is changed in order to have a proper solution (which we both agreed what it is)... because that is equivalent to saying that you will not accept a proper solution.

You are lying to yourself Sotos. You claim to want a Cyprus where it does not matter if you are TC or GC yet how you behave here in regards to others is solely defined by that difference. If someone espouses a TC perspective you behave one way (so yes you would and did treat Bananiot as a TC when he was here), if they espouse a GC one (as Kikapu often does) you behave in a different way. There is a fundamental contradiction between what you tell yourself you want and how you behave. This is not about challenging the 'usual Turkish position' - I do not represent the 'usual Turkish position' at all - my differences with orthodox TC narrative are legion and in some cases fundamental, yet you do not treat me the same here as you treat GiG or GR or Paphitis or Piratis or (kikapu). If you really think you do then you really are lying to yourself.

To me it doesn't matter what the ethnicity of a forum member is ... it is his position that counts. For example I argue with GR constantly... we even curse at each other on a topic discussing computers! I treat you the same as everybody else. I just strongly disagree with any excuses given as to why Cyprus can't be a normal democratic country and I don't care who makes up the excuses.

[erolz66]

To me it doesn't matter what the ethnicity of a forum member is ... it is his position that counts. For example I argue with GR constantly... we even curse at each other on a topic discussing computers! I treat you the same as everybody else. I just strongly disagree with any excuses given as to why Cyprus can't be a normal democratic country and I don't care who makes up the excuses.

No you do not. If it had been me that had said we as Cypriots should not do anything that might make it harder for us to kill each other in the future because this is not over yet and is just the continuation of the war between Greek and Turk that has been raging for centuries and thus we need to be ready for the 'next round', you would not have agreed and supported that argument. You would have said 'typical Turk attitude". You are simply lying to yourself. You claim to want a Cyprus where it does not matter if you are GC or TC or any other sort of Cypriot, yet you are unable to even see that here whether someone is a TC or GC defines how you behave and react to them.

[Sotos]

To me it doesn't matter what the ethnicity of a forum member is ... it is his position that counts. For example I argue with GR constantly... we even curse at each other on a topic discussing computers! I treat you the same as everybody else. I just strongly disagree with any excuses given as to why Cyprus can't be a normal democratic country and I don't care who makes up the excuses.

No you do not. If it had been me that had said we as Cypriots should not do anything that might make it harder for us to kill each other in the future because this is not over yet and is just the continuation of the war between Greek and Turk that has been raging for centuries and thus we need to be ready for the 'next round', you would not have agreed and supported that argument. You would have said 'typical Turk attitude". You are simply lying to yourself. You claim to want a Cyprus where it does not matter if you are GC or TC or any other sort of Cypriot, yet you are unable to even see that here whether someone is a TC or GC defines how you behave and react to them.

In that case I would probably say something along the lines of "next war we will win". I WANT a Cyprus where being TC or GC does not matter but that is NOT what we have. Today we are still divided in two sides... and even worst we are technically still at war with each other! I do not exclude anybody from being on our side fighting for the freedom of Cyprus and for democracy... if you support our struggle then you are one of "us", and it doesn't matter if you are GC, TC, English or a Turk from Turkey. But if you position yourself on the opposite side by siding with the Turkish army in case of a war or by propagandizing excuses as to why Cyprus can't be a free democratic country then I treat you as the opponent you choose to be! I think we can look at the past objectively if we want to simply understand what happened. But most TCs that come in here are not interested in that ... they are just interested in looking at the past in an one sided way filled with exaggerations and often lies just so they can excuse their current unfair demands. You can't talk sensibly with such people ... you can just counter their claims.