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Shared Management of Europe's External Borders

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Re: Shared Management of Europe's External Border

Postby erolz66 » Thu Apr 28, 2016 11:04 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote: And, I see erolz is still struggling with any meaningful interpretation of documents - and that's with the benefit of hindsight and seeing how wrong he has been all along.
Keep clinging to some lost hopes for the EU to 'sanction' or commit 'expulsion'. :P


Claiming that the EU never said "Greece is seriously neglecting its obligations" when the EU has publicly said "Greece is seriously neglecting its obligations" - that is just denial of reality and the response of a fanatic. You can waffle on about my inability to 'interpret' what the EU says actually means till the cows come home and you have and will but it does not change the FACT of what they ACTUALLY SAID. It just shows you for the fanatic that you are.

To a sane person the EU saying "Greece is seriously neglecting its obligations" means the EU is saying "Greece is seriously neglecting its obligations". Only a fanatic would try and claim the EU saying "Greece is seriously neglecting its obligations" means the EU is saying "Frontex is seriously neglecting its obligations". Only a hypocritical fanatic would do so whilst screaming and shouting at others 'liar, twister, distorter'. Only a hypocritical fanatic like GiG would do so for 3 plus months and try and 'crow' about it.
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Re: Shared Management of Europe's External Borders

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:18 am

You also claimed they had threatened Greece with sanctions. This proved to be a baseless lie that even attracted the publication of a strong confirmation against such interpretation and yet you still went off on one again determined to twist some possible hope of a sanction. You are sick.

And finally, if you read the documents as a whole, as intended with recommendations and action plans you will see that once again it is your interpretation at fault and the fact you fail to distinguish between the sovereign role Greece plays and the extraneous role of the JOINT EU external border which at least since 2010, in Greece, has been under the management of Frontex (and slightly earlier for Poseidon).

You even fail to see how because Greece (like any other country) has a limited police force that you think, despite recent EU-loan-enforced cuts, they should be forced to employ a few hundred thousand more to deal with Turkey's illegal migrants - and yet again I showed you how that distinction works whereby it was Frontex that has recruited extra police from around the EU - because it is a SHARED responsibility - but you see "Greece" and Hellenic" and you wet yourself with anticipation that some disaster might befall Greece to make you satisfied.

You fail to see that anyone can make any absurd recommendations (e.g. best to send all the illegal migrants to the moon, plenty of room there) but how they are interpreted and how they arrive at a viable solution, by those who have more insight, can be completely different when the whole scenario is evaluated. That's why I suggest to look at what is actually coming to fruition.

You passion is reminiscent of dictators like Hitler, for sure. Your determination that one group of people must be punished. That organisations must stick to your interpretation of some law. That recommendations must be adhered to even if they are illogical, impractical and would cause more misery to that group of people rather than provide an opportunity for collaboration and setting right some outdated mechanism.

Well tough! The EU is in solidarity and Frontex is being strengthened to finally oppose Turkey's destructive expansionist agenda (which from your stance here, I can believe you support.)
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Re: Shared Management of Europe's External Borders

Postby erolz66 » Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:33 am

GreekIslandGirl wrote:You also claimed they had threatened Greece with sanctions. This proved to be a baseless lie that even attracted the publication of a strong confirmation against such interpretation and yet you still went off on one again determined to twist some possible hope of a sanction. You are sick.


I, along with 100's of journalists from countless media outlets, claimed that the ability of the EU to close the internal boarders between Greece and other Schengen members under Article 26, should Greece fail to rectified the identified serious deficiencies of Greece within three months, represents the ability to sanction Greece. You presented evidence that the EU says such an ability does not represent a 'sanction'. I accepted this evidence, I accept that my claim is contradictory to theirs. My claim is not a baseless lie , it is a difference of opinion between myself and the EU on this point. Nor is my opinion 'baseless'. The basis on which I hold it is the FACT that the EU can under Article 26 impose on Greece the suspension of Greece from Schengen, if Greece does not rectify the identified serious deficiencies within the defined three month period.

For a clear example of something that IS a baseless lie you only need to look here cyprus43551-20.html#p834808 Your claim that 'your document' (8th biannual report on function of Schengen area) was the 'evaluation document that 'my source' was debating' IS a baseless lie. It is provable and been proven that 'your document' could not possibly have been the one 'my source' was debating. That then is a clear example of a baseless lie. Just one of the many reality you have never addressed and just simply ignore because doing so suits you. This is what you do. Make claims that are not true , could not be true, build on these lies and repeat them over and over and never address the lie in your original claim when challenged over it.

GreekIslandGirl wrote:And finally, if you read the documents as a whole, as intended with recommendations and action plans you will see that once again it is your interpretation at fault and the fact you fail to distinguish between the sovereign role Greece plays and the extraneous role of the JOINT EU external border which at least since 2010, in Greece, has been under the management of Frontex (and slightly earlier for Poseidon).


There are No documents, plural. There was and is a Schengen evaluation report on Greece. This document, like ALL such Schengen evaluation reports is itself not public. The conclusions that this evaluation report on Greece came to were made public by the EU themselves. The conclusions are clear and plain and state "Greece is seriously neglecting its obligations". This is a FACT. There is no interpretation to be done. There is just the FACT that the EU said this. If you had said you disagree with the conclusions in this official EU evaluation of GREECE, that would be a rational position. To try and claim the EU did NOT say this is not rational, it is just denial of FACT, which is what you do, what you have always done.

GreekIslandGirl wrote:You even fail to see how because Greece (like any other country) has a limited police force that you think, despite recent EU-loan-enforced cuts, they should be forced to employ a few hundred thousand more to deal with Turkey's illegal migrants - and yet again I showed you how that distinction works whereby it was Frontex that has recruited extra police from around the EU - because it is a SHARED responsibility - but you see "Greece" and Hellenic" and you wet yourself with anticipation that some disaster might befall Greece to make you satisfied.


I pointed out the FACT that ONE of the 50 specific measures the EU (not me, the EU) has said GREECE needs to address, in order to not longer be neglecting its obligations, is to reinforce the Hellenic Police. I pointed out this FACT to show how your claim that the measures that the EU has said Greece needs to take to no longer be neglecting it's obligations were all to do with Frontex and were responsibility of Frontex and not Greece. The Hellenic Police, despite all your efforts to distort and distract is is the national police service of Greece. It is nothing to do with Frontex, Frontex has no responsibility for it or control over it. Thus when the EU says what Greece needs to do to meet its obligations is reinforce the Hellenic Police this PROVES that the claim that the measures the EU has said Greece needs to take in order to meet its obligations are NOT all to do with Frontex and the responsibility of Frontex. Just one more reality that you will ignore because it does not suit you.

GreekIslandGirl wrote:You fail to see that anyone can make any absurd recommendations (e.g. best to send all the illegal migrants to the moon, plenty of room there) but how they are interpreted and how they arrive at a viable solution, by those who have more insight, can be completely different when the whole scenario is evaluated. That's why I suggest to look at what is actually coming to fruition.


Anyone can make absurd recommendations but what has occurred is the EU COUNCIL has made 50 specific recommendation as to what GREECE needs to do in order to meet it's obligations. They made these recommendations and set a three month time limit on Greece to do so, as a RESULT OF the official Schengen Evaluation OF Greece, carried out as part of the Schengen Evaluation mechanism, as laid out in law, that concluded that "Greece is seriously neglecting its obligations". Despite all you attempts to twist and distort objective reality these 50 recommendations are NOT things that are the responsibility of Frontex. They are clearly things that GREECE is responsible for, not things that Frontex is responsible under Greece's supervision.

GreekIslandGirl wrote:You passion is reminiscent of dictators like Hitler, for sure. Your determination that one group of people must be punished. That organisations must stick to your interpretation of some law. That recommendations must be adhered to even if they are illogical, impractical and would cause more misery to that group of people rather than provide an opportunity for collaboration and setting right some outdated mechanism.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

My passion is for truth over lies, for rationality and reason over dogma and propaganda. Which is why I challenge and call out and show your behaviour here of systematic distortion of truth and reality to suits your needs, detached from and in denial of any and all actual reality.
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Re: Shared Management of Europe's External Borders

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:49 am

erolz66 wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:You passion is reminiscent of dictators like Hitler, for sure. Your determination that one group of people must be punished. That organisations must stick to your interpretation of some law. That recommendations must be adhered to even if they are illogical, impractical and would cause more misery to that group of people rather than provide an opportunity for collaboration and setting right some outdated mechanism.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law


Hahahaha ... :lol:

As predicted. Ironically proving me correct by throwing another "law" at me! :D :P :P :P
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Re: Shared Management of Europe's External Borders

Postby supporttheunderdog » Sun May 01, 2016 10:14 am

i am on a break with the family with only intermittent wifi an when I have it little time to post. I will be catching up and commenting shortly, but again the argument about misinterpretstion of documents been inverted by gIG who has made various claims about the meaning of words in certain documents that quite simply are not correct, namely that where in an Evaluation of Greece's compliance with her obligations under the Schengen Agrrement, based on visits on 10th to 13th November 2015" Carried out under ec1053/2013, serious deficiencues were identified on the part of GREECE,.....

That by various ploys has been misinterpreted, wilfully so bi gIG to mean Frontex was decifient.

That has in turn has involved wilful misinterpretation of the law which governs the Schengen Agreement, blindly throwing the phrase about "shared management"' but with complete disregard for the mechanism defined in EC2007/2004', including as ammended,) which defines how the sharing operates, strating from the premise in PARA 4 that the member states withbexternsl borders are responsible for msnagement of the externsl border, then setting out the coordinating role of Frontex in various asoects like training and standards and in providing assistance to the member nations through cordinating cooperation with other member nations but not controlling the operations which may then take place, still under the responsibility of the member states.

The ludicrusness of her position is demonstrated by comments that Frontex has been performing border operations, which Frontex has not, contradicted by a press article where she highlighted Frontex was incapbable of carrying out border operations, which is the correct position as defined by EC2007/2004 as amended.

Requests for gig to justify her poistion and explain how the sharing mechanism works have never been answered.. We just get told it is shared... And that mens it is not Greece's fault. Well the EU commission and EU council disagree.
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Re: Shared Management of Europe's External Borders

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Sun May 01, 2016 11:13 am

That's interesting.

Frontex employees have immunity from legal proceedings from doing anything in an 'official capacity'.
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Re: Shared Management of Europe's External Border

Postby supporttheunderdog » Sun May 01, 2016 11:49 am

GreekIslandGirl wrote:That's interesting.

Frontex employees have immunity from legal proceedings from doing anything in an 'official capacity'.
,

And?.

Does not change the position about Greece's responsibilities for mananagement of its ozrt of the external eu border of the Commission and Council agreeing that serious deficiencies on the part of GREECE Had bern identified in How Greececwas duscahrging its obligations in the performance of it duties, which under EC2007/2004 as amended were never an area of FRONTEX'S responsibility bearing in mind how sharing is arranged under EU Law.

No mattter what sort of spin you put on the words, you do not surely seek to deny that official EU documents have clearly stated Serious deficiences on the psrt of GREECE.
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Re: Shared Management of Europe's External Borders

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Sun May 01, 2016 12:08 pm

Whilst the EU/EC with its 'blurred' areas of accountability would 'cricitise' this action as happening 'in Greece', the whole reality is otherwise:

EU border agency Frontex guilty of massive breach of human rights:

Border actions coordinated by Frontex have repeatedly led to the deaths of refugees. For example, inflatable dinghies with refugees on board on the river Evros at the Turkish-Greek border were shot at in order to force them to return. Border officials from the German police stationed there have also been involved in such actions.


https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/1 ... n-o28.html
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Re: Shared Management of Europe's External Borders

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Sun May 01, 2016 12:10 pm

More criticism of Frontex, not 'fit for purpose':

The presence of EASO (European Asylum Support Office) at the hotspots in Italy and Greece has been underwhelming. Only eight member-state experts have been sent in all of Italy, and 12 member-state experts and one EASO staff member have been dispatched to Greece.


https://www.ceps.eu/publications/europe ... it-purpose
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Re: Shared Management of Europe's External Borders

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Sun May 01, 2016 12:14 pm

On accountability:

This response underlines a lack of willingness to be held accountable as the coordinator of operations deployed at the EU’s external borders. It is thus extremely difficult to hold Frontex liable in the context of the actions it coordinates. Although its responsibility is mentioned in its Fundamental Rights Strategy, as well as in the preamble of the Regulation on sea interceptions, no mention of the responsibility of the agency is made in the Codes of Conduct or Operational Plans.


From Booth et al.'s Frontexit report pdf
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