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[GreekIslandGirl]

A reminder from Page1, the EU's pledge:

There will no longer be shortages of staff or equipment for European border operations.

The recognition of how deficient Frontex has been!

Since 2005 the role of Frontex, has been to promote, coordinate and develop integrated border management. However, until now Frontex had only been granted a limited role in supporting Member States to manage their external borders. The crisis has shown that the limitations of Frontex – limited resources in terms of staff and equipment, an inability to initiate and carry out return or border management operations and the absence of an explicit role to conduct search and rescue operations – have hindered its ability to effectively address significant increases of migratory pressure.

Let's hope this crisis has truly helped European solidarity and effective preparation for the future since belligerent, expansionist Turkey is NOW the EU's direct neighbour and not just that of Greece.

[erolz66]

Did the EU state that the official schengen evaluation report on Greece concluded that Greece was seriously neglecting it's obligations ?

Why can you not answer this question GiG ?

[supporttheunderdog]

A reminder from Page1, the EU's pledge:

There will no longer be shortages of staff or equipment for European border operations.

The recognition of how deficient Frontex has been!

Since 2005 the role of Frontex, has been to promote, coordinate and develop integrated border management. However, until now Frontex had only been granted a limited role in supporting Member States to manage their external borders. The crisis has shown that the limitations of Frontex – limited resources in terms of staff and equipment, an inability to initiate and carry out return or border management operations and the absence of an explicit role to conduct search and rescue operations – have hindered its ability to effectively address significant increases of migratory pressure.

Let's hope this crisis has truly helped European solidarity and effective preparation for the future since belligerent, expansionist Turkey is NOW the EU's direct neighbour and not just that of Greece.

This quote here actualy clearly demonstrates at least one inconsinsistency in your arguements about the role of Frontex as it was at material times ie as at November 2015 when serious deficiencies were identified on the part of Greece, and confirms my argument about the limited role of FRONTEX as enshrined by law. You hav claimed earlier FRONTEX was patrolling but here you have highlighted the inability of FRONTEX to carry out ... Border management operations. Do you accept that, that contrary to what you claimed earlier, Frontex was not performing border operations.

If so it flows from that that much of what you say is misconceived as it is based on false premise about the role of Frontex, which that one quote above by you confirms.

There is another logical error you made earlier when you refered to redundant EU decisions , those being the acceptance of the report finding serios deficiencies on the part of Greece and impostion of a requirement for Greece to correct them in a set time frame of three months. Now to describe decisions as redundant is to me an admission that such decisions were made. Now it appears to me that where they were made on the express basis of a finding that Greece was seriously deficient in fulfiling its obligations there is an implied acceptance that the EU had so stated they were deficient.

Can you therefore confirm you agree that the EU Commission and Council have both stated Greece was seriously deficient?

I am not asking you to agree it was a correct finding. That is a matter of opinion where you can try arguing with the people who made it, FRONTEX, the EU Commission and EU Council, not Erolz or I. I am simply asking you to confirm that , right or wrong, as a matter of Historical fact that is what the EU Commission and Council have stated.

I trust you can see the distinction between agreeing someone said something, as opposed to agreeing with what they said.

[GreekIslandGirl]

For the last time, the EU/EC has not found Greece (the country) deficient or not fulfilling obligations but they found the factors that were for joint management of the crisis at the EU external border (around Greece, hence use of 'Greece') was what was deficient.

The external borders around Greece that are of interest to Schengen are a JOINT EU management responsibility and all actions put in place support this!

Frontex was deficient.

That is why Frontex has been strengthened.

And for stud - I said Frontex 'came and went' over the years (there was a modicum but the numbers were never substantial) since being set up and clearly was caught short when the crisis developed most severely. Too many cuts I suppose. But now it's become a priority.

I suppose Greece could sue the EU for the expense this 'deficiency' in the joint management has presented it with in terms of costs from its own infrastructure finances - so we need more of those Goldsmith's style independent evaluations that don't mince their words.

"A key actor in the planning that led to this deadly policy shift, the report states, was Frontex, the European border agency."

[erolz66]

For the last time, the EU/EC has not found Greece (the country) deficient or not fulfilling obligations but they found the factors that were for joint management of the crisis at the EU external border (around Greece, hence use of 'Greece') was what was deficient.

Meanwhile back in the real world what the EU has actually said http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-174_en.htm

the (now no longer) draft report concludes that Greece is seriously neglecting its obligations

Month after month after month of relentless blatant denial of reality. This is what you do GiG, it is what you have always done. Does not get any plainer and clearer than that.

[supporttheunderdog]

Here we go round in circles. The explicit words used were that serious deficiencies were identified on the part of Greece , not Frontex, and that is because Frontex had no role of the sort you earlier alleged. You cannot blame frontex for any inaction in preventing deficiencies when at the time in question frontex was legally precluded from so doing.

The words used by the EU bodies are clear and unambiguous. It is a standard rule of construction that if a set of words make sense without adding or taking away anything that is the meaningbto be applied. Your interpretation does not stand the construction test since for your interpretation requires only works by substantially amending the sentence, with major additions to make FRONTEX a part of it, whereby blame falls on them.

I note by the way a vanishing purple post...dead like the purple one....did you realise the provence of and currency of the source? They were from a horses mouth, ie an official and credible valid source. As stated you have quoted something which is entirely in accord with what I had quoted
What by the way was the source of the comment about the inability of FRONTEX to perform return or border operations thatbin my view so fundamentally cut the ground from under your feet about the alkeged role of Frontex?

[GreekIslandGirl]

[I removed the purple post after a short period of time because it was aimed at you and didn't need to stay long term - I'm sick of trying to get the topic back on track. Stop posting the same meaningless diatribe.]

So, you've identified deficiencies in the functioning of Frontex now too!

Good!

So stop blaming Greece for this or that and be thankful the deficiency with Frontex's operation is being plugged!

[erolz66]

Claiming that when the EU stated the official evaluation report on Greece concluded that

Greece is seriously neglecting its obligations

what they actually meant but did not say, is

EU federal agencies like frontex that operate in the geographical area of and around Greece are seriously neglecting their obligations

Is not argument. It is denial of reality. It is puerile and an insult to anyone's intelligence. To do it once would be embarrassing. To do it continuously for month after month all whilst screaming and shouting at others 'liar, twister, distorter', That is the behaviour of a fanatical nutter. Absolutely nothing new here then in GiG behaviour on this forum. Just a text book example of what she does here what she has always done here.

Nor is a 'natural' attempt to defend Greece against criticism. A rational defence of Greece in response to such an EU finding would be, "yes the EU found that but I claim they are wrong and the result is more about politics than about actual actions or lack of them by Greece'. Or 'yes the EU found that but then they would have found the same on an evaluation of any country that was in the same situation as Greece'. Either of these would represent a rational defence of Greece.

Claiming that the EU never said "Greece is seriously neglecting its obligations" when the EU has publicly said "Greece is seriously neglecting its obligations" - that is just denial of reality and the response of a fanatic.

[supporttheunderdog]

So, you've identified deficiencies in the functioning of Frontex now too

So stop blaming Greece for this or that and be thankful the deficiency with Frontex's operation is being plugged!

No I have not identified defiencies in the functioning of Frontex,Concerning the serious deficiencies on the part of Greece as identified by the evaluation on November 10th to 13th. These were areas where only Greece not Frontex had responsibility as the member state with an EU external border and where no one but Greece can be criticised if in the face of a developing situation it took until 3rd December for Greece to recognise the enormity of its positiion and took steps to deal with them, by inviting help. Frontex could only have been deficient if Frontex had not responded, which she did a week later.

Significantly the 8th bienniel report you mentioned made no comment on earlier requests for assistance or how they had been dealt with in the context of ensuring the proper functioning of Schengen, which i find both surprising and significant.

That is therefore a straw man arguement at which you not even any good.

[GreekIslandGirl]

These were areas where only Greece not Frontex had responsibility

Rubbish!

Frontex moved in to share responsibility for managing the external border in 2010.

And as for what's included or not included in any evaluation, that speaks volumes about their exclusivity/inclusivity and reliability and not whether they relate to any real event.

And, I see erolz is still struggling with any meaningful interpretation of documents - and that's with the benefit of hindsight and seeing how wrong he has been all along.
Keep clinging to some lost hopes for the EU to 'sanction' or commit 'expulsion'.