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May's Brexit Speech

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Re: May's Brexit Speech

Postby Tim Drayton » Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:14 pm

Londonrake wrote:Ken Clarke:

"I look forward to the day when the Westminster Parliament is just a council chamber in Europe".


Personally - and I suspect I may speak for very many millions of others - I have a fundamental problem with that concept. :wink:

Little Englanders Inc :wink:


There speaks a fellow European federalist - and I accept that this is not the majority opinion in the UK, but still consider that I am entitled to hold it.
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Re: May's Brexit Speech

Postby Londonrake » Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:45 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:
Londonrake wrote:Ken Clarke:

"I look forward to the day when the Westminster Parliament is just a council chamber in Europe".


Personally - and I suspect I may speak for very many millions of others - I have a fundamental problem with that concept. :wink:

Little Englanders Inc :wink:


There speaks a fellow European federalist - and I accept that this is not the majority opinion in the UK, but still consider that I am entitled to hold it.


Who has ever denied your right to hold any (legal) position? What Remainers don't have a right to do though is to overturn the referendum result, or to attempt to bring about a situation where we are not actually out of the EU. That's something entirely different.

Your fellow European federalist was of course the only Tory to vote against the bill. Even the arch Remainers within the Party have now it sems finally accepted the justice of the result. A majority of 384. The first and probably most important hurdle in activating A50 has been crossed.

Corbyn's Labour Party were once again in disarray and it looks like there will be a third Shadow Cabinet reshuffle in 18 months. People who are in their first parliamentary spell are being told to keep their phones on, lest they receive a call to fill a SC position. :roll: A fifth of the PLP, including 17 frontbenchers, voted against the whip.

So, ironically, we now hear the famously rebellious backbencher, a man who has voted against his own Party over 500 times in the past 20 years (more than a great many Conservatives), calling for "unity". You'd be hard pushed to make this stuff up.
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Re: May's Brexit Speech

Postby Londonrake » Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:57 pm

Of interest.

"In hindsight, do you think that Britain was right or wrong to vote to leave the EU?"

Poll of polls:

http://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in ... ve-the-eu/

.
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Re: May's Brexit Speech

Postby Tim Drayton » Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:09 pm

Londonrake wrote:Of interest.

"In hindsight, do you think that Britain was right or wrong to vote to leave the EU?"

Poll of polls:

http://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in ... ve-the-eu/

.


Sad. Looks like they will have to find out the hard way.
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Re: May's Brexit Speech

Postby Tim Drayton » Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:30 pm

Mind you, it all depends where you look:

There have been numerous polls since the referendum that have asked how people would vote in another referendum tomorrow (below are all the polls I can find in the last three months):

ComRes/CNN (18th Dec) – Remain 45, Leave 47 (Remain 49, Leave 51)
Gallup International (7th Dec) – Remain 54, Leave 46 (Remain 54, Leave 46)
ComRes/Mirror (27th Nov) – Remain 46, Leave 47 (Remain 49, Leave 51)
YouGov (25th Oct) – Remain 44, Leave 43 (Remain 51, Leave 49)
BMG (24th Oct) – Remain 45, Leave 43 (Remain 51, Leave 49)
Survation/ITN (12th Oct) – Remain 44, Leave 44 (Remain 50, Leave 50)

...

In addition, YouGov have asked a regular question for the Times on whether people think leaving was the right or wrong way for Britain to vote. That too shows no obvious evidence of Bregret:

YouGov (5th Dec) – Right 44%, Wrong 42%
YouGov (29th Nov) – Right 44%, Wrong 45%
YouGov (15th Nov) – Right 46%, Wrong 43%
YouGov (12th Oct) – Right 45%, Wrong 43%


It all looks pretty close to me in the above.
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Re: May's Brexit Speech

Postby Londonrake » Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:42 pm

But for 7 months now, across the Forums, I've been reading the regular refrain that people (that's usually preceded by a selection of insulting adjectives) bitterly regret voting to leave. Furthermore, they we're praying for a second chance. Repentance. Like a lot of the Project Fear stuff though, it ain't actually true.

UK unemployment figures down again today. Check the rate in the EU. Particularly amongst the young. UK growth about to be revised upwards - again. Funny "immediate, self inflicted recession".

The Forex sharks, sensing what's happening in France, are starting to short the €. Eurozone inflation up.

As far as learning the hard way. I can appreciate the vulnerability of somebody in your, fairly unique, position. However, it's a different perspective entirely for those in the U.K. I'm vulnerable as well and have lost pension income. I'm just more altruistic than you. :wink: :D
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Re: May's Brexit Speech

Postby Tim Drayton » Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:49 pm

Some people don't seem to be able to grasp that the UK has not left the EU yet. It remains a full member and retains all the advantages of membership.
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Re: May's Brexit Speech

Postby Tim Drayton » Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:58 pm

- About 1.2 million British people are permanently resident in other EU countries, so there is nothing particularly unique about my position.

- I am one of about 16,5000,000 British people who genuinely believe that the UK is far better off in the EU. You may prefer to ignore the existence of this large group of people, or refuse to believe that this is my conviction. That, ultimately, is your prerogative.
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Re: May's Brexit Speech

Postby Londonrake » Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:20 pm

I'm sure you are right. I also think most (but not all) are not naive enough to believe that disentangling yourself from a 40 year relationship was going to be painless, I can't imagine what a shock it all is to the Civil Service. People who's main priority for the whole of their working lives has been Europe. Now, it's getting out of it.

Nevertheless, although much is made of alleged lies that came from the likes of Johnson/Farage ( personally, I wasn't listening to what they were peddling) little gets mentioned of the much bigger ones that came out of Cameron, Osborne and their big business/diplomatic friends. You know, the crowd that told us that if we didn't' sign up to the Euro, we would face economic hardship/stagnation and "isolation". According to their prophecies people in the U.K. should now be wandering an economic, post apocalyptic landscape. Clearly..................they were fibbing.

I don't understand what you mean by ignoring the existence of those who voted to remain. More (over a million) opted to leave. Who ever considers the loosing side in an election? You had your fair say, just like every other registered voter. I also think you are fantasising if you believe everyone who voted to remain did so out of a strong belief that we would be far better off in doing so. My (albeit limited) experiences indicated that the majority did so merely out of the desire to maintain the status quo.

You also keep mentioning your convictions, as though somebody is trying to rob you of them.They're your's to keep but what do they have to do with it all? :?
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Re: May's Brexit Speech

Postby Tim Drayton » Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:26 pm

I can accept that you are opposed to the EU out of a genuine conviction while you seem unable to accept that I support the EU and the UK's membership of it out of a similarly genuine conviction. That's what it has to do with it.
I don't see how you can discount an opinion held by 16,500,000 people. It all comes back to whether you believe in pluralism and the right of everybody to hold an opinion regardless of whether it is the majority one.
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