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Proposal to Simplify Property Issue

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Proposal to Simplify Property Issue

Postby turkcyp » Wed Dec 08, 2004 7:28 pm

TCs are very skeptical about RoC intentions and about the way the RoC government guarantees their properties in the south. The reason for this is very simple.

As we all know, because the majority of the TC property is not in use by anybody in the south over the course of 30 years it has deteriorate so much that its economic value right now is very near to miniscule. It would take millions of dollar investment on TCs part to bring the properties to their economic levels of 74. Some of the property had deteriorated so much that, it was torn down by the government.

But the values of GC property in north had increased compared to its 74 levels because its been used and taken car of, by some TC or by some settler. A lot of investment has been made on to those properties.

Of course there are many reasons for this. From legal point of view, I can understand GCs. They said it would be illegal for RoC government to give this property to some GC because it is not governments to give, and because RoC respect property rights of TCs they could not do that. From legality point of view, I totally understand their arguments.

But the reality is no matter what the causes are, GC property in the north most of the times have been improved, and TC property in the south have been deteriorated. This led to many, including me, to believe that it is a political tool employed by the GC administration to drive away more of the TCs out of the Cyprus. How?

Well if there is a solution in Cyprus the way GCs propose where every refuge has a right to turn back, then there is a possibility that ( I am not saying definite, because we do not know how many of the GC refuges would like to turn back) decent amount of TCs will be at the loosing and of this deal, since they will be giving up the improved property and getting back derelict quality property. This will be huge financial burden to many TCs to swallow, and if does happen, you can further see dwindling of the TC community in Cyprus, going to Europe to straighten their financial fortunes.

But RoC can simplify this whole issue. My proposal is this. Why doesn’t RoC allow the sale of all of the property in the north and also allow the sale of TC property in the south?

I believe if this is let to happen, the current users of the GC property in the north can find an acceptable settlement for the property with the GC owners of the property. This is most probably will include the sale of the GC property by the GC to its current user for an acceptable price, or some other kind of mutually agreed settlement between the two personal parties without involving any of the governments.

Those GCs that do not want to turn back to north can simply sell their properties to whoever pays most I guess, and those GCs that want to moveback to north one day, may refuse to sell their property. Nobody is forcing them. RoC can allow the same thing to happen to TC properties in the south? (By the way RoC does not even let TCs to buy GC property even in the south. Let’s say I want to go down to Paphos and buy a house, I am not allowed. At least this is what I have been told last year when I attempted)

I believe this will some benefits One is to identify what % of GC community want to turn back to north, and what % of TC community want to turn back to south? This can create more trust among each community to other, and show us where we should focus our attention in terms of property settlement, in the future solution negotiations.

I am quite optimistic that if I can find the owner of the land where my house resides in north right now, we can find a mutually agreed price for the land among us if he/she wants to sell the land to me. If he/she doesn’t want to sell, I guess it is my tough luck. But nothing would change from the current picture.

I am also quite confident that may be I can even find a idiot buyer for my derelict, and economically zero value land in south. I probably will have to be on the loosing and of this deal, because I will have to pay decent amount of money to GC, because the land is now improved, and probably no body want to pay decent amount of money to my derelict in the south, but at least I will sleep with comfort at night, that any future solution to Cyprus problem will not kick me out of my home.

I do not know if this is an acceptable solution (or at least a start) to GCs. Please write your comments and any downsides you see with this kind of scenario.
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Postby insan » Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:16 pm

As we all know, because the majority of the TC property is not in use by anybody in the south over the course of 30 years it has deteriorate so much that its economic value right now is very near to miniscule. It would take millions of dollar investment on TCs part to bring the properties to their economic levels of 74. Some of the property had deteriorated so much that, it was torn down by the government.




In cities and ex-mixed villages almost all TC properties are in use in South.... I don't know about the villages which had been abandoned in 1963-64 and pure TC villages...
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Postby magikthrill » Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:16 pm

although your justify your proposal quite well it would still remain unacceptable. all refugees must have the right to return.

Because the Cyprus issue has been largely ignored the past 30 years by the international community Turkey thinks that they have won because they believe the int'l community will not be accepting of removing the current illeal occupants in the north.

The right to return is a basic human right as stated by the United Nations Human Charter.

My friend the other day had to interview a diplomat for his thesis and he interviewed a Cypriot diplomat who told him that Cyprus will never allow Turkey to enter the EU unless all refugees have the chance to reclaim their law. ANd that's how it should be. And on a sidenote, as for Dec. 17th Cyprus will not use their veto to begin accession talks most likely.
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Postby turkcyp » Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:53 pm

magikthrill wrote:although your justify your proposal quite well it would still remain unacceptable. all refugees must have the right to return..


I thought "right to return" also involves "right to sell" the property. All I am saying that if some of teh refugess do not want to return, for whatever the reason is, they should be given right to sell the property to anyone they wish to do so.

That is not that complicated to understand. I, for example, would be willing to buy the land I am using in north, from its GC owner, if he/she wishes to sell. If he/she doesn't want to sell me, he/she can sell it to anybody they want. That's all I am saying.

I guess all I am asking is this. You claim that we are not teh real owners of this land. Then let us deal with the real owner and give us an opportunity to buy the land if they are willing to sell.

Limiting this always creates suspicion in the TC community about the intentions of teh GC side. As I have said, last summer I was told by my attorney that it is illegal for me to buy a house even in the south side from its rightful GC owner, right now.

It is kind of restricted by RoC for any TC to make any property transaction anywhere on the island. That is what bothers me.
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Postby magikthrill » Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:20 pm

hey turkcyp

my bad, i agree with what you are saying. as long as refugees are given the option to return to their homes, after that they can do whatever they want with their land/property.

if that's what you were trying to say i agree. but this has to be done w/out exception. it must apply to all refugees of all locations. that is why i keep stressing out. sorry if i came out like an ass.
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Re: Proposal to Simplify Property Issue

Postby turkcyp » Mon May 02, 2005 6:52 pm

turkcyp wrote:But RoC can simplify this whole issue. My proposal is this. Why doesn’t RoC allow the sale of all of the property in the north and also allow the sale of TC property in the south?


This question that I have asked long time ago still remains valid. If RoC wants to simplify property problem it should allow the sale of GC properties in north and at the same time allow sale of TC properties in south.

A GC who does not want to move back to north should be able to go and sell his/her property to the highest bidder. (and same for TCs)
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Postby Kifeas » Mon May 02, 2005 8:26 pm

turkcyp wrote:This question that I have asked long time ago still remains valid. If RoC wants to simplify property problem it should allow the sale of GC properties in north and at the same time allow sale of TC properties in south.

A GC who does not want to move back to north should be able to go and sell his/her property to the highest bidder. (and same for TCs)


Hello Turkcyp,

Do you mean a GC should be allowed to sell his property through the RoC land registry or through the "trnc" land registry?
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Postby turkcyp » Mon May 02, 2005 8:57 pm

Kifeas wrote:Hello Turkcyp,

Do you mean a GC should be allowed to sell his property through the RoC land registry or through the "trnc" land registry?


Exactly the same way where a GC in the south sells his property.

According to RoC regulations (I do not know if these are law or anything but I am talking about application), certain real estate transactional are not permitted in RoC.
- A pre-74 GC property in north can not be sold.
- A pre-74 TC property in south can not be sold.

IF these are allowed by RoC, at least those portions of the society who does not want to go back to their pre-74 properties can be taken out of the property picture. For example I will be willing to pay for land to its GC owner and bought the plot of house that I have built in north. (if he is interested in selling of course). Of course if this is done, when and if there is a property settlement in Cyprus I expect to get all my property back in south (if I did not sell it by then) because I will not be using it to get the north property as I have already pay for it.

Very simple proposal really that can make life much easier for some people on the island.

Another thing I have been told that even today as a TC I can not go and buy a property even in south. Let's say I want to buy one of those nice villas that you guys make and sell to Brits in Paphos, supposedly I am not entitled to do that. (I am not sure about this though, if anyone can ask to his lawyer friends that he knows in south and enlighten me about this, I would like to know.)
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Postby Kifeas » Mon May 02, 2005 9:25 pm

turkcyp wrote:Exactly the same way where a GC in the south sells his property.

According to RoC regulations (I do not know if these are law or anything but I am talking about application), certain real estate transactional are not permitted in RoC.
- A pre-74 GC property in north can not be sold.
- A pre-74 TC property in south can not be sold.


A GC is allowed to sell his property in the north any time he wishes through the RoC land registry. He can sell it to another GC or TC. In case he wishes to sell it to a foreigner (non Cypriot national) the foreigner must first obtain a permit from the council of ministers that allows him to buy property in Cyprus and in this case he is allowed to buy the GC’s property whether is in the north or in the south.

In the case of a TC property in the south, the TC owner can also sell it but if he is a person that moved from south into the north after 1974, he must return back to the south and reside permanently for 6 months and then he is entitled to apply to the council of ministers for the reinstitution of his property in the south. When the reinstitution is approved, (obviously after some research is done to verify that he didn’t obtain and sold GC land in the north and thus was benefited financially from it,) he can gain hold of his property and then he is also allowed to sell it to anyone he wishes. Either to another TC or to a GC, or even to foreigner.

If the TC has emigrated from Cyprus before 1974, he is entitle to apply for reinstatement of his property, without the condition of the 6 month permanent residency, and after that he can sell it again to anyone he wishes.

In any case in which the council of ministers doesn’t approve reinstatement, there is always the court procedure and under all likelihood, the owner of the property will win his case.

turkcyp wrote:IF these are allowed by RoC, at least those portions of the society who does not want to go back to their pre-74 properties can be taken out of the property picture. For example I will be willing to pay for land to its GC owner and bought the plot of house that I have built in north. (if he is interested in selling of course). Of course if this is done, when and if there is a property settlement in Cyprus I expect to get all my property back in south (if I did not sell it by then)


Who will buy the property of the GC in the north? Or better, who will want (interested) to buy the GC property in the north from its original GC owner?

turkcyp wrote:Very simple proposal really that can make life much easier for some people on the island.


Not quite!

turkcyp wrote:Another thing I have been told that even today as a TC I can not go and buy a property even in south. Let's say I want to buy one of those nice villas that you guys make and sell to Brits in Paphos, supposedly I am not entitled to do that. (I am not sure about this though, if anyone can ask to his lawyer friends that he knows in south and enlighten me about this, I would like to know.)


You are perfectly allowed to do so. Not problem whatsoever. You are a citizen of the republic and you can move and settle anywhere you wish.
Out of curiosity, who gave you such an impression?
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Postby turkcyp » Mon May 02, 2005 9:37 pm

Kifeas wrote:
A GC is allowed to sell his property in the north any time he wishes through the RoC land registry. He can sell it to another GC or TC. In case he wishes to sell it to a foreigner (non Cypriot national) the foreigner must first obtain a permit from the council of ministers that allows him to buy property in Cyprus and in this case he is allowed to buy the GC’s property whether is in the north or in the south.

In the case of a TC property in the south, the TC owner can also sell it but if he is a person that moved from south into the north after 1974, he must return back to the south and reside permanently for 6 months and then he is entitled to apply to the council of ministers for the reinstitution of his property in the south. When the reinstitution is approved, (obviously after some research is done to verify that he didn’t obtain and sold GC land in the north and thus was benefited financially from it,) he can gain hold of his property and then he is also allowed to sell it to anyone he wishes. Either to another TC or to a GC, or even to foreigner.

If the TC has emigrated from Cyprus before 1974, he is entitle to apply for reinstatement of his property, without the condition of the 6 month permanent residency, and after that he can sell it again to anyone he wishes.

In any case in which the council of ministers doesn’t approve reinstatement, there is always the court procedure and under all likelihood, the owner of the property will win his case.


AS I have said it before, I do not know what the law says. But in practice no work is done on any of the above properties.

Kifeas wrote:
turkcyp wrote:IF these are allowed by RoC, at least those portions of the society who does not want to go back to their pre-74 properties can be taken out of the property picture. For example I will be willing to pay for land to its GC owner and bought the plot of house that I have built in north. (if he is interested in selling of course). Of course if this is done, when and if there is a property settlement in Cyprus I expect to get all my property back in south (if I did not sell it by then)

Who will buy the property of the GC in the north? Or better, who will want (interested) to buy the GC property in the north from its original GC owner?


I guess you do not read my posts carefully. I even gave myself as an example. And I am quite sure there will be other people who is interested in doing the same with the pre-74 owner of the property.

Kifeas wrote:You are perfectly allowed to do so. Not problem whatsoever. You are a citizen of the republic and you can move and settle anywhere you wish.
Out of curiosity, who gave you such an impression?


I have been told by a real-estate agent in south (and yes he was a GC). I was interested in buying property in south. And I have been told that because I was a TC my purchase will not be put into process by government officials in RoC.

As I have said, I do not know if he was lying or if this is not the law but an unspoken practice but this is what I have been told.
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