Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

Now, I will make another bed with you or anyone else interested. If you will manage to find me a decent buyer, irrespective of the means (legal or not) by which I will force the RoC to accept the transaction, I will give you 5% of commission. However the buyer has to be a serious one, with financial proof and who will be willing to wait for some time until I secure the title transfer to him. I believe this is fair, isn’t it?

Accepted?

If you are serious about this and if you are willing to accept a realistic price for your land here I will pledge to do my best to find you a serious buyer and ask no comission what so ever. Depending on the size, location, current ocupancy and price of your land I may even consider buying myself. Maybe the TRNC would consider buying it. I do not know and can not begin to find out until you let me know ehere it is and what price you want for it (by PM if you wish).

What is a realistic price according to you?
I gave you the details previously.
You personally are entitled to buy it.
However "TRNC" is not an option since it is not a recognised legal entity by the RoC. Remember, we are always talking about making a sale transaction under the legal authority of the RoC. For the RoC, “TRNC” doesn’t exist. This is a known fact.

[Kifeas]

But I insist that we deposit the amounts we have agreed into safe keeping so that we are certain that if one of us loses then the money will be there to meet the commitment.

What you are asking will not be necessary. You will find it out soon.

[brother]

Whatever the going rate is in the North is what you will get, but i am sure it is a lot more than £7000 but not as much as £200,000 like in the south.
I wish you good luck in your sale and hope this will be a land mark case that will free up many GC to sell their lands aswell if they wish too.

[erolz]

[My property (land) is in Lapithos (Lapta to you) right on the seaside. It has an area 10,577 sq. meters, which is equivalent to 7.91 donums. It is on Sheet plan: XI. 6. W1, W2. Plot numbers 14 & 14

The market value of this land in 1973 was estimated at £7,000 per donum and was among the most expensive areas of Cyprus at those times., Therefore the total in 1973 was about £ 55,000 . It is suitable for tourism development (i.e, build a hotel, etc.) 100 meters to it's left there is a very beautiful sandy beach. Similar land anywhere in the south is valued today at around £200,000 per donum. I want to sell this land in order to buy an equivalent one in the south and build my hotel in the south since Turkey doesn't allow me to do so in the north.

How much should I sell it for?

Do you know does the land currenty yhave any devlopments on it. Is it occupied by anyone? Has it been used as 'exchange land' by the TRNC and allocated here to anyone?

Off the top of my head £200,000 per donum sounds very expensive to me - certainly more expensive than any other land in the North, even clean title deed land of similar type - but then I am not an estate agent. Anyway even at half the price and at 7.9 donums it would be beyond my personal means. Would you consider selling part of it? A half donum or single donum my be more realistic as far as myself goes.

As I have mentioned before, tomorrow I have to complete my miltary service duties here - two weeks. However on my return and if you are still interested I am more than happy to start making some enquires here. Get some valuations from estate agents. Make enquires with the authoorites here as to how they would regard such a transaction and sound out potential buyers all on a no fee no obligation basis - just as a friend trying to help another friend.

[Kifeas]

Whatever the going rate is in the North is what you will get, but i am sure it is a lot more than £7000 but not as much as £200,000 like in the south.
I wish you good luck in your sale and hope this will be a land mark case that will free up many GC to sell their lands aswell if they wish too.

Is it fair to ask an average price of the two figures you mention above? That will make the minimum asking price around £103,000. Therefore anything from this amount and up will be fine with me. Remember, I will still need to add another £97,000 for each donum, in order to buy an equivalent land in the south. Therefore anything less than that is not a real motivation for me to sell my land. I could as well wait another 15 years until my case against Turkey at the ECHR is concluded.

Tell me how much you would be willing to buy it for and I will consider it. In fact I am willing to give a priority to your bid, even if there is a higher bid as long as it not more than 10% to your bid.

[Kifeas]

Do you know does the land currenty yhave any devlopments on it. Is it occupied by anyone? Has it been used as 'exchange land' by the TRNC and allocated here to anyone?

Why do you ask these questions?
I am accepting only the laws of the RoC. Whatever the “TRNC” did or does is none of my business. For me and for the RoC any transaction authorised by “TRNC” is illegal. Is like it has never existed. Remember, we are talking about a transaction under the jurisdiction of the RoC. Even if I want to, I cannot commit any transaction under the “TRNC.” “TRNC” doesn’t “recognise” me as the legal owner of this land anyway, set aside to accept my right to sell it.

I thought it was clear what we were talking about, all along!

Anyway, do you know any GC land, at least in the greater Kyrenia area, that has not been “given out,” or “sold” by “TRNC” to a third party? This is a fact that you should have known from the beginning.

We are talking about my right to sell this land (my land) according to the only legal title deeds, thse issued by the RoC, and which are the only ones I have in my possession.

I claim that according to the RoC I have the right to sell my property.
Can I sell it though?

I mean, can you find me a buyer or not?

[erolz]

Why do you ask these questions?

Because I am trying to asses the feasibility of such a sale. The value of this land to anyone depends on what chance there is of the buyer being able to use that land - which in turn relates to the questions I have asked.

I am accepting only the laws of the RoC. Whatever the “TRNC” did or does is none of my business. For me and for the RoC any transaction authorised by “TRNC” is illegal. Is like it has never existed. Remember, we are talking about a transaction under the jurisdiction of the RoC. Even if I want to, I cannot commit any transaction under the “TRNC.” “TRNC” doesn’t “recognise” me as the legal owner of this land anyway, set aside to accept my right to sell it.

I understand all of this, but what matters to you as the seller is not the same as what matter to the buyer. WHat matters to the buyer is will they be able to use this land they buy from you under RoC law here in the TRNC or not. What the cost may be and the chance of sucsess may be of any necessary legal action they take here to enusre their use of the land. If the chance of them being able to use tha land here is zero, or the cost of persuing legal avenues to secure use of the land here is prohibitavely high then obviously finding a buyer will not be possible. So I understand your postition as a seller I would hope you woud understand the position of the buyer in any such proposed transaction.

I thought it was clear what we were talking about, all along!

I am purely thinking of the practicality of what we were talking about all along. This depends not just on your position as the seller and the RoC view of such a sale but also the position of the buyer and the TRNC's view on such a sale. If a sale is ever to happen then all of these need to be understood and assesed.

We are talking about my right to sell this land (my land) according to the only legal title deeds, thse issued by the RoC, and which are the only ones I have in my possession.

We may have been talking about rights but I have moved on to talk about practical realites and not rights. Whatever you rights disputed or not a sale will depend on realites and not rights.

I claim that according to the RoC I have the right to sell my property.
Can I sell it though?

You can only sell it if there is someone who wants to buy it and this is true regardless of any political aspect.

I mean, can you find me a buyer or not?

That depends on many factors and not just on weather the RoC will 'allow' you to sell it. I can not tell you if I can find you a buyer. I can only do what I have already offered to do and that is investigate the matter futher.

[turkcyp]

First of all Kifeas,

As I have said even there is no law against it you simply forget the effects of intimidation on behalf of government. The moment you try to sell your land in north government will put obstacles in fron t of you. Not legal obstacles but as I have said there are unspoken rules. If you insist on it too much, the nest thing it will happen is that you will be banded as a traitor by some news people who is close to government. And the pressure for not to sell on you will start growing first from government to media to society. Get ready for it. And as MicAtCyp said I am sure you will also find very hard to find a lawyer that will take your case. May be a TC lawyer will.

I am sure if you are willing to go all the way, you probably can get government to let you sell the land, (the worst case scenario ECHR would force them to do) but most people choose not to go all that length to quits way before under the pressure.

By the way the similar land for your land in north sells around 80-100k per donum. This is British pounds. If you are interested and if your land is vacant I can find a buyer for you.

Take care,

p.s. I am not interested inbuying your land. but I am definetly interested in fiding the owner of the plot that I have built my new house on and buy it from him. I am not a property investor. I just want to secure my house that's all. And if I buy this plot from this dude, then my property that I have used to secure this from TRNC goverment would be freed so I can go back to south and claim back my property in south as well.

[Viewpoint]

Kifeas

What you are asking will not be necessary. You will find it out soon.

How do I know you will pay up? I need guarantees and I do not trust that you will meet your commitment.

My property (land) is in Lapithos (Lapta to you) right on the seaside. It has an area 10,577 sq. meters, which is equivalent to 7.91 donums. It is on Sheet plan: XI. 6. W1, W2. Plot numbers 14 & 14

That plot has been developed, so again you cannot sell your property. I think you knew this all along but that doesnt change the fact that you cannot sell your property, to anyone be it GC TC English as you have no land to sell, its been used.

So you have to wait for your trial to unfold in ECHR which you have lodged to find out if you will get anything.

Kifeas

Now back to our bet. Naturally, in saying that the RoC will not be able to stop me, I also consider the possibility to take her to the courts, in order to achieve the sale. What I am betting on is on the final outcome; even if that means that it may be reached after going to a court. I hope this was clear.

In order to assist you I am willing to pay you 1 Cyprus Pound for your land, lets see if the "RoC" will allow you to sell your land to a TC or will you be derailed by the not so evident forces that will come into play.

[MicAtCyp]

Kifeas

I did not refute the possibility that you could sell your property.In fact I said Perhaps the only way for you to sell your property in the occupied is to sell it to another GC or Tc who already resides permanently in the free areas

I understand however your bet was to sell it to anyone including a TC or a foreigner residing in the occupied areas? If yes these are my comments:

What makes a State is the agreement of a person to have land/immovable property under the laws of some authority. The sum of all those persons and the sum of their properties and Lands define the physical and legal existence of that State. By selling your property to a person (A TC living in the occupied areas) who de facto does not agree to abide himself and his property to the authority of RoC but to the authority of the pseudo is like selling part of your State, and the State itself cannot accept that. That's why we say the "Trnc" is pseudo, it's because the land which makes it a state does not belong to the people who assigned themselves under its authority. If it was otherwise i would guarantee you the "trnc" would not be a pseudo at all, and it would be recognised the very next day.*

Now you wonder how can the state exclude you the right to fully enjoy your property (including selling it). It is because it has the right to protect what makes itself a State. It limits your right to sell it to anyone who will use your property to transfer Statehood to another "so called state". In the end yes your right to enjoy your property is not absolute it has limits.

So in conclussion yes it will limit you the right to sell to a TC living in the occupied. And it will not lose at the ECHR!
I know from first hand that you are not the first one who thought about it (my koumbaros from Morfou tried it 2(?) years ago) and there was absolutely no lawyer who adviced him to go to the EU. He revolted exactly the same way you revolt today, and what the lawyers told him is what in general lines I tell you here.

PS.* Now think what will happen if Turkey offers cash to each and every TC to come here and each one of them buys 2-3 properties in the occupied areas.Do you think Turkey does not have that financial ability?