Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

Why do you ask these questions?

Because I am trying to asses the feasibility of such a sale. The value of this land to anyone depends on what chance there is of the buyer being able to use that land - which in turn relates to the questions I have asked.

Ok, but this not what we have agreed. We have agreed that you will provide a buyer who is willing to pay a decent price fro my land and I will take care of all the title deed transfers through the RoC. You disputed my ability to finalise the sale and I bet with you that I can in fact conclude the transaction with the RoC provided that you find me a sincere perspective buyer. You seemed to certain that you could find a buyer and you had doubts that I could complete the title deed transfer. Now it seems that we have exactly the opposite situation.

I am accepting only the laws of the RoC. Whatever the “TRNC” did or does is none of my business. For me and for the RoC any transaction authorised by “TRNC” is illegal. Is like it has never existed. Remember, we are talking about a transaction under the jurisdiction of the RoC. Even if I want to, I cannot commit any transaction under the “TRNC.” “TRNC” doesn’t “recognise” me as the legal owner of this land anyway, set aside to accept my right to sell it.

I understand all of this, but what matters to you as the seller is not the same as what matter to the buyer. WHat matters to the buyer is will they be able to use this land they buy from you under RoC law here in the TRNC or not. What the cost may be and the chance of sucsess may be of any necessary legal action they take here to enusre their use of the land. If the chance of them being able to use tha land here is zero, or the cost of persuing legal avenues to secure use of the land here is prohibitavely high then obviously finding a buyer will not be possible. So I understand your postition as a seller I would hope you woud understand the position of the buyer in any such proposed transaction.

Ok, but I suppose it was your obligation to take all these into consideration before challenging me that you will find me a buyer in order to prove to that I cannot conclude the sale through the RoC.

I thought it was clear what we were talking about, all along!

I am purely thinking of the practicality of what we were talking about all along. This depends not just on your position as the seller and the RoC view of such a sale but also the position of the buyer and the TRNC's view on such a sale. If a sale is ever to happen then all of these need to be understood and assesed.

Same answer as above.

We are talking about my right to sell this land (my land) according to the only legal title deeds, thse issued by the RoC, and which are the only ones I have in my possession.

We may have been talking about rights but I have moved on to talk about practical realites and not rights. Whatever you rights disputed or not a sale will depend on realites and not rights.

Therefore you admit that the real obstacle in me not been able to sell my property is not the RoC but the realities (illegalities to me and to the rest of the world) on the ground as they were created by Turkey and the "TRNC."

I claim that according to the RoC I have the right to sell my property.
Can I sell it though?

You can only sell it if there is someone who wants to buy it and this is true regardless of any political aspect.

Can you find me any GC property in the north that someone will be interested to buy from the legal GC owner at a decent price and not just for purely symbolic peanuts in order to double secure the ownership. If this is the case (which in fact is,) why any GC owner ever bother, I mean to sell his property rights for peanuts in order to white wash the thieve of his property.

I mean, can you find me a buyer or not?

That depends on many factors and not just on weather the RoC will 'allow' you to sell it. I can not tell you if I can find you a buyer. I can only do what I have already offered to do and that is investigate the matter futher.

Erol, why is it so difficult to admit that the whole issue is a nonsense and that in fact you cannot find any buyer and that the real problem is not the willingness of RoC or not (something for which I am sure I can deal with, anyway,) but the illegal confiscation of all the GC properties in the north and the arbitrary allocation to anyone that "TRNC" wished to do so, subsequently issuing illegal titles of ownership and facilitating further illegal transactions on these properties?

[erolz]

Certainly it would seem I have labouring under a misconception. I assumed you actualy wanted to sell your property and where not making a 'political point'

Also I never challenged you at any point, that I remember? Actually all I have done is to offer to help as I can facilitate the sale of your land in the north if that is at all possible - under the above misconception.

Therefore you admit that the real obstacle in me not been able to sell my property is not the RoC but the realities (illegalities to me and to the rest of the world) on the ground as they were created by Turkey and the "TRNC."

I admit it is one of the many obstacles to such a sale. These may be possible to overcome and they may not be. The only 'political' angle I have had in all of this is one of curiosity.

Erol, why is it so difficult to admit that the whole issue is a nonsense and that in fact you cannot find any buyer and that the real problem is not the willingness of RoC or not (something for which I am sure I can deal with, anyway,) but the illegal confiscation of all the GC properties in the north and the arbitrary allocation to anyone that "TRNC" wished to do so, subsequently issuing illegal titles of ownership and facilitating further illegal transactions on these properties?

If I thought the whole idea was a nonsense I would not have made my (sincere) offers to help explore it further.

You wonder how such a deal could ever work. Here is my view. You have some land here in the north. This land is currently unused and undeveloped. It has been 'assigned' by the TRNC to a TC. This TC is keen to sell. There is a buyer who wants the land but also wants to know that it is totaly theirs by any and all parties that may claim jurisdiction now and in the future. They are prepared to pay for such security. All that then remians is the question of if they are prepared to pay enough to buy the land under TRNC law from the TC who 'owns' it and also buy it from you under RoC law to secure their ownership of it. I guess you think such a senario is beyond the realms of possibility. I currently do not. Perhaps if I persued this futher I may come to the conclusion it is impossible. Or perhaps I would not. I do not know at this point in time.

Anyway the next time I consider making a sincere offer of help to yourself I will be much more careful in assesing if you really want it or not or are just making a political point

[Kifeas]

-First of all Kifeas,

As I have said even there is no law against it you simply forget the effects of intimidation on behalf of government. The moment you try to sell your land in north government will put obstacles in fron t of you. Not legal obstacles but as I have said there are unspoken rules. If you insist on it too much, the nest thing it will happen is that you will be banded as a traitor by some news people who is close to government. And the pressure for not to sell on you will start growing first from government to media to society. Get ready for it. And as MicAtCyp said I am sure you will also find very hard to find a lawyer that will take your case. May be a TC lawyer will.

My friend you make a very big mistake. First of all no one can intimidate me or call me a traitor or anything like that. I am doing something perfectly legal, something that is my absolute right to do and through the legal channel which is the land registry of the RoC. I will have absolutely no dealings with the “TRNC.” I will not proceed through the land registry of the “TRNC” nor to any so-called property Committee of the “TRNC.” My property in the north is under the jurisdiction of the RoC and it will in fact continue to remain under the formal jurisdiction of the RoC after the sale. It will simply change hands from me to another legitimate natural person or legal entity, be it another GC or a TC or any other E.U. citizen. I am not causing any political or legal damage to the RoC. In the same way that it allows the sale of properties to foreigners and other E.U. citizens in the south, without this been harmful to it’s interests, the RoC will do it for my property in the north.

-I am sure if you are willing to go all the way, you probably can get government to let you sell the land, (the worst case scenario ECHR would force them to do) but most people choose not to go all that length to quits way before under the pressure.

That is a different issue. Anyhow I do not think that for such a case the RoC will have any serious objections.

By the way the similar land for your land in north sells around 80-100k per donum. This is British pounds. If you are interested and if your land is vacant I can find a buyer for you.

I know it. Thanks any way. Any way I would never be willing to sell that low as this means less than half, almost down to 1/3 of the price of equivalent land in the south.

-p.s. I am not interested inbuying your land. but I am definetly interested in fiding the owner of the plot that I have built my new house on and buy it from him. I am not a property investor. I just want to secure my house that's all. And if I buy this plot from this dude, then my property that I have used to secure this from TRNC goverment would be freed so I can go back to south and claim back my property in south as well.

You can make a research in the land registry of the RoC and find out who is the owner. Perhaps he might be interested. Who knows? I wish my case as well as the remaining 99% of the cases of GC properties were similar to yours. Your case I believe relates to only 1% all the GC property cases in the north.

Take care too,

[erolz]

I know it. Thanks any way. Any way I would never be willing to sell that low as this means less than half, almost down to 1/3 of the price of equivalent land in the south.

Politics aside I would love to sell my property in North Cyprus at the equivalent price in would fetch in London. In reality though if I want to sell my property here I have to accept a price that relates to the market value here, because here is where my property is. If you wish to sell your property in the north at a prices that it would fetch if it were in the south then yes you are right there is no chance of finding a buyer, just as there is no chance of me finding a buyer for my property here based on prices if it were in London.

[Kifeas]

I know it. Thanks any way. Any way I would never be willing to sell that low as this means less than half, almost down to 1/3 of the price of equivalent land in the south.

Politics aside I would love to sell my property in North Cyprus at the equivalent price in would fetch in London. In reality though if I want to sell my property here I have to accept a price that relates to the market value here, because here is where my property is. If you wish to sell your property in the north at a prices that it would fetch if it were in the south then yes you are right there is no chance of finding a buyer, just as there is no chance of me finding a buyer for my property here based on prices if it were in London.

Erol, let's face it. There is no chance of me selling my land in the north even if I go down to half the price of the current "market value" of similar properties in the north. Because still the buyer will be required to "buy" this property again from whoever currently holds it, under the "TRNC" laws. That will make the final price of such property one and a half (1 1/2)times more than the current "market" value in the north.

On the other hand, once there is a solution, the market value of these properties in the north will skyrocket immediately and reach the current market values of equivalent properties in the south, because then the island will then be re-united, or the territory (north and south) will be a de facto member (part) of the E.U. and will be a subject to the same market and economic forces that the south is currently a subject. Why then I should sell my ownership rights to anyone just for peanuts now and consequently convert him into a reach man once there is a solution, while at the same time I will stay for ever with the peanuts he will give me and I will never be able to buy any similar property again in my entire life.

[Kifeas]

Certainly it would seem I have labouring under a misconception. I assumed you actualy wanted to sell your property and where not making a 'political point'

Erol, I made it clear that I am sincerely interested in selling my property on a decent and logical for me price. I never said that I am willing to sell it for just about anything, in order to just prove that I can conclude the transaction in the RoC land registry. It is obvious that you cannot provide a perspective buyer even for half the current “market” value of this property. However this is something that you was supposed to have known and I hope you do not blame me for cheating or misleading you.

[Viewpoint]

Kifeas

You speak like someone that has evidence to say this. It didn’t occur to me in real life but I can tell you this. If I decide to sell my property in the north and someone is willing to buy it and we agree on the price and ultimately RoC refuses to curry out the title transfer through the land registry, I will sue RoC the next morning and read my lips, “I WILL WIN THE CASE 100%” and have them pay all the legal expenses as well.

If I ever find my self in any of the above situations and even in the case that I was a TC, I will again repeat the above answer: I will sue RoC the next morning and read my lips, “I WILL WIN THE CASE 100%” and have them pay all the legal expenses as well.

Viewpoint

You think its so easy, try asking the TCs who have been tied up in knots by your legal system and hold out no hope of ever getting a conclusion. You are a GC and im sure they would do everything in their power to stop any intention you had of selling your land in the north, if you are free to do this why arent GCs doing it??? have you asked yourself this?? there must be a few hardup GC who would love the extra cash by selling their property in the north, they cant thats why your administration warns them no to. If they can treat and influence you in this fashion then just think how they would treat TCs.

Kifeas

As a test to prove you are wrong, I challenge you to find me one buyer for my property in the north and then we will see if the RoC can indeed stop me from selling it. I bet 100,000 pounds and I ask you bet only 1,000 on it, that I can sell it and RoC will have no choice other than transferring the title deeds..

Viewpoint

Your on I take up your challenge please provide details of property and price you expect, you can private message me..
When can you pay me the 100.000 pounds ??? Please PM soon.

Kifeas where are you????

Kifeas

I am not saying that the RoC might not attempt to inhibit it.

Viewpoint

Thats what I said all along, you will not be able to go through with such a sale, so many obsticles will be put in your path that you will give up. I am stiill expecting details of your property if you want to go ahead unless you wish to pay me the 100.000 pounds now??? a bet is a bet dont you agree Kifeas?

Kifeas

VP read my posting for Mike more carefully and try to consolidate what I said.
Furthermore, I believe it is not to the interest of the RoC to let such a case to reach the ECHR, because it will damage the case of other GCs against Turkey. RoC will appear in the eyes of the court as acting in a similar way like Turkey, which also deprives me from my property rights. That means that in the end they will have to allow the transfer (sale.)

Whatever the obstacles might be, I am more than sure that I will overcome them.

Now back to our bet. Naturally, in saying that the RoC will not be able to stop me, I also consider the possibility to take her to the courts, in order to achieve the sale. What I am betting on is on the final outcome; even if that means that it may be reached after going to a court. I hope this was clear.

Viewpoint

Kifeas, lets take it one step at a time.

Kindly provide details of your property so that we can find you a buyer be it TC GC English Israeli whatever.

Then we can take it from there.

We can keep everyone posted.

But I insist that we deposit the amounts we have agreed into safe keeping so that we are certain that if one of us loses then the money will be there to meet the commitment.

Agreed????

I am sure you will not renege on our bet as it was made in front all forum members.

Kifeas

What you are asking will not be necessary. You will find it out soon.

Viewpoint

How do I know you will pay up? I need guarantees and I do not trust that you will meet your commitment.

Kifeas

My property (land) is in Lapithos (Lapta to you) right on the seaside. It has an area 10,577 sq. meters, which is equivalent to 7.91 donums. It is on Sheet plan: XI. 6. W1, W2. Plot numbers 14 & 14

Viewpoint

That plot has been developed, so again you cannot sell your property. I think you knew this all along but that doesnt change the fact that you cannot sell your property, to anyone be it GC TC English as you have no land to sell, its been used.

So you have to wait for your trial to unfold in ECHR which you have lodged to find out if you will get anything.

In order to assist you I am willing to pay you 1 Cyprus Pound for your land, lets see if the "RoC" will allow you to sell your land to a TC or will you be derailed by the not so evident forces that will come into play.

(apologies if I have missed any quotes it was not intentional)


Kifeas where do we stand?, you have not responded to me but everyone else, obviously you are out to prove a political point that the "RoC" will allow you to sell your property in the north, and not for financial gain, then we can prove this very easily, Seeing your property has been utilized and the extreem priceyou are quoting, we cannot find a genuine buyer, but to test the ho so democratic and squeeky clean "RoC" I am willing to pay you 1 Cyprus pound for your land, lets make an application to your relevent office, do we have to go via a solicitor? to enact the sale and see what we are faced with if they proceed and we are able to effect sale (which we will not do of course) then I will pay you 1000 Cyprus pounds, if we are unable to make any progress and you have to take your own country to (local) court which will take many years, then you can deposit the 100.000 Cyprus Pounds in an interest bearing deposit account, the interest we can donate to a mutually agreed charity eg Cancer Fund equally on both sides until your case is concluded, if you are successful with your sale then you get your money back if not you pay me...How does that sound..???

[turkcyp]

My friend you make a very big mistake. First of all no one can intimidate me or call me a traitor or anything like that. I am doing something perfectly legal, something that is my absolute right to do and through the legal channel which is the land registry of the RoC. I will have absolutely no dealings with the “TRNC.” I will not proceed through the land registry of the “TRNC” nor to any so-called property Committee of the “TRNC.” My property in the north is under the jurisdiction of the RoC and it will in fact continue to remain under the formal jurisdiction of the RoC after the sale. It will simply change hands from me to another legitimate natural person or legal entity, be it another GC or a TC or any other E.U. citizen. I am not causing any political or legal damage to the RoC. In the same way that it allows the sale of properties to foreigners and other E.U. citizens in the south, without this been harmful to it’s interests, the RoC will do it for my property in the north.

My friend,

Sorry to ask you but how old are you? Because you seem to live in this utopian world where everything goes by the book and according to law. (I am seriously not trying to insult or anything, I wish I can be like you as well, but I guess I am much more jaded)

For example, Have you heard of somebody called Aziz Kent. (You should be since you are from Lapithos) This guy is a first TC hotelier on the island. Before 1974 he had tried to open a hotel in Lapithos (called celebrity hotel) on his land, and RoC did not let him do it. Then after so many hard times finally RoC had given him permission to build his hotel, and he did it on TC land. (Celebrity hotel). Now RoC is trying to stop him advertising his hotel to foreigners, by claiming that his hotel is on GC land.

Now does anybody has to go through all these suing government to get to do the right things. I mean why do I have to. There is and there have been always deliberate efforts from RoC government to prevent economic development of TCs on the island so that they would migrate. It is a known but never written policy of RoC to do that. For example open a TC newspaper you will find GC advertisements in it. I know many people in the north that tried to put an ad in GC paper but they have been refused, even all their business were completely in TC land.

Please awake from this dream world that you are living. Do not take your government (any government for that matter) at her word always.

Take care,

[Kifeas]

Your on I take up your challenge please provide details of property and price you expect, you can private message me..
When can you pay me the 100.000 pounds ??? Please PM soon.

Kifeas where are you????

So for what reason then you asked me right from the beginning to say to you what price I expect if your only concern was not to find me a decent buyer but to check whether me and the RoC could do the transfer. Did you expect me to be willing to simply “donate” my property rights to anyone just in order to white wash him from the illegality of using of my property. Is this a logical assumption that you have made? Naturally, when something is self-evident, it is omitted.

After all the RoC, in order to proceed to the title transfer, would charge me 3% on the property's estimated market value, as a nominal transfer tax. You want me to sell it for one pound and then also pay out of my pocket perhaps an additional 40 or 50 thousand pounds to the government as transfer taxes.

[erolz]

Erol, let's face it. There is no chance of me selling my land in the north even if I go down to half the price of the current "market value" of similar properties in the north. Because still the buyer will be required to "buy" this property again from whoever currently holds it, under the "TRNC" laws. That will make the final price of such property one and a half (1 1/2)times more than the current "market" value in the north.

If you were prepared to come down to half the TRNC market price then a sale is certainly within the rtealms of possibility. Estate agents I have spoken to claim that the difference between equivalent properties here in trnc of exhcnage land and 'clean' (TC prior to 74) land is between 30-40%. So say you land has market value in TRNC as exchange land of 100,000 per donum. As 'clean' land it would be worth say 135,000. The TC current 'owner' wants to sell and quickly. They will accept 80,000 per donum to ensure a sale. You will accept half its value here (as clean title land because you consider it clean title even though it is not). So say 67,500 per donum. Total cost to perspective purchaser is then 147,500 per donum vs a market vlaue of 135,000. Certainly within the realms of possibility.

On the other hand, once there is a solution, the market value of these properties in the north will skyrocket immediately and reach the current market values of equivalent properties in the south, because then the island will then be re-united, or the territory (north and south) will be a de facto member (part) of the E.U. and will be a subject to the same market and economic forces that the south is currently a subject. Why then I should sell my ownership rights to anyone just for peanuts now and consequently convert him into a reach man once there is a solution, while at the same time I will stay for ever with the peanuts he will give me and I will never be able to buy any similar property again in my entire life.

Sure this is your choice. However gains in value of your land here are not guaranteed. They depend on a solution and on the nature of the solution. Like with any investment you can take your cash now, at best price the market will provide now, or you can speculate that it will increase in value over time - but run the risk that it will not (or in the Cyprus situation the risk that there is no settlement in your lifetime and thus you never realise any value from it, or there is a settlement but you do not get market value for whatever reason). I am not saying you should sell it ot keep it. That choice is yours. However you can not in investment terms equate actual value now with potential vlaue in the future. They are not the same thing.