Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz]

Erol,

You have to accept that to get what you want you have to compromise the individual rights of the refugees.

Both sides have to compromise - that is my position.

My argument is why should these people be denied their rights in order to suit your collective rights as a people?

I say they should accept that there must be limits on their rights (not be forced to limit them) voluntarily. Why should they chose to do this? because quite simply it is necessary if we are to achieve a fair solution in Cyprus. We have to limit our absolute rights and you have to limit yours. That is a consequence of there being two seperate peoples living in one Island with such a history of opposed desires and wishes. Hopefully in time we can come to a point where our desires as seperate peoples are mutual desires of both communites and not opposing seires. However first we must create a fraework where this can happen.

It is individual human rights that actually count in the end.

What is your basis for saying this?

There is nothing in the various human rights charters that talk of indivduals rights 'counting more' than those of peoples. There is no such 'hireachy' of rights. No doubt you would not be happy as a GC to still be a part of the UK - even if you had the same rights as an indivdual as any other UK citizen. In such a hypothetical senario I do not think you would be saying that it is only indivdual rights that matter.

I am sorry but to say that human rights of indivduals matter but human rights of peoples do not, is to me just another (in a long line of) attempt(s) by GC to deny TC their human rights, whilst at the same time charterising the Cyprus problem today as one merely of GC indivduals human rights violations by TC/T.

To say indivudals human rights matter but the human rights of peoples do not matter (or do not matter as much) - is to pervert the charters of human rights to a massive degree. It also just happens to deliver a 'justification' for a GC desire to force the TC into being nothing more than a political minority in their own (shared) homeland.

This is the greatest injustice to me because you want us to compromise the rights of the refugees and also to compromise the rights of any GC's that may wish to live in the north in order to suit your needs tp the exclusion of others.

What is an injustice is to say your indivdual rights are more important than our rights as a people - which is exactly what you say above (and is also consistent with years and years of GC attempts to deny TC peoples their just rights as a people).
I say that where we have a reality of your rights and our rights clashing BOTH sides need to agree to compromise and limit their total and absolute rights. We can agree to limit our total and absolute rights as a people to self determination. To me it is only reasonable to expect you in return to be prepared to accept compromise and limits on your rights (be they as indivudals or as a people). The 'prize' of such and acceptance is peace and harmony in Cyprus - which ultimately IS more important than either indivduals or peoples total and absolute human rights.

If people choose to live in the north there must be representation of those people in all aspects of political life in the north. Trying to keep strict bizonality is unfair but I do think this can be overcome if GC's that would live in the north can have representation that would allow them to have a voice but to keep a balance such that the TC's have the majority of seats in their constituent state. That way the GC's could never dominate politically in the north but be able to have a voice in the north. Likewise the same should be done in the south so that TC's living in the south can have a voice in the GC constituent state but never be allowed to dominate politically in that state.

So I am now confused. How can you have both total and absolute rights as GC indivduals to return to their properties and buy and live anywhere in Cyprus and have full political rights within that component state and at the same time ensure that GC can not become a numerical majority within the TC consistuent state? You can not have both. That is the basis of the clash. Certainly if you claim that TC rights as a people are 'less important / valid' than GC indiduals rights then there is no problem. However this is not what the charters on human rights actual say.

If an intricate web is weaved between the two communities in this way then in my view that will have the effect of binding us whilst respecting the needs of each community no matter where individuals choose to live.

I am sorry but how can you ensure that the TC consituent state is not dominated by GC numericaly and at the same time allow total and absolute rights to GC to live anywhere in Cyprus and have unfettered right to representation in the consituent state they live in?

As long as you believe that yor rights matter and ours do not then the chance of any balance or 'intircate web' being weaved in Cyprus is remote.

If you can accept that our rights are as real and as important as yours then we can start to talk sensibly about what limits we can accept and what limits you can accept. Before that there is little to do except continue the bickering (and pain and suffering) that has been the history of Cyprus and Cypriots since it's inception in 1960.

[-mikkie2-]

Erol,

Get off your high horse is all have to say.

If you read my post, I specifically said that that each constituent state should give political rights to each community but biased to the main community of the respective state so that one does not dominate over the other.

The more I listen to what you say the more I think to hell with you and all Turkish Cypriots. Cyprus is our homeland too and you want to turn us into 2nd class citizens in our own country.

If you want an ethnically pure region then why do you want unification? Why do you bother? Because you want to continue living off our backs is my probable guess.

If you want unification, then the rights of all Cypriots need to be respected. If you want to compromise our rights in order to pander to your perceived needs then quit talking about unification and talk about what you really want - the recognition of your pathetic state.

[erolz]

Erol,

Get off your high horse is all have to say.

hmmm

If you read my post, I specifically said that that each constituent state should give political rights to each community but biased to the main community of the respective state so that one does not dominate over the other.

You have said this but have not explained how this can be achieved without there being any limits on GC rights to live in either consitiuent state and to have poltical representation in that state.
I have no problem with the idea of two states. I have no problem with GC choosing to live in the TC state. I have no problem with GC living in the TC state having political representation within that state. However there does need to be some way of protecting the TC state from becoming dominated by GC numericaly - and this HAS to involve some restrictions on ypour total and absolute rights to live anywhere in Cyprus.

The more I listen to what you say the more I think to hell with you and all Turkish Cypriots.

You mean the more I insist that the TC people also have rights - and that they are are no more or less important than your rights - the more you think to hell with me and TC. Sounds like 1960 to me.

Cyprus is our homeland too and you want to turn us into 2nd class citizens in our own country.

Rubbish. I do not require any limit on GC idivduals freedoms that I do not also accept for the TC indidvduals. The same is true of limits on each communites rights as people. I say BOTH communites need to compromise their total and absolute freedoms and rights - equally. How by refusing to accept that the TC peoples rights are 'not important' compared to GC indivduals absolute rights am I making you a second class citizen in your own country

If you want an ethnically pure region then why do you want unification? Why do you bother? Because you want to continue living off our backs is my probable guess.

Where have I said I want an ethnicaly pure region? I want unification because I believ unity is better than division. Simple really. I have no desire to 'live off your back' and it is just insulting to say that is what I want.

If you want unification, then the rights of all Cypriots need to be respected.

Certainly - except you interpret human rights as meaning only indivduals rights and claim that TC rights as a people 'are not real'. This is not respecting Cypriots rights. It is saying our rights are more important than yours and that is not respecting human rights - that is perverting human rights.

If you want to compromise our rights in order to pander to your perceived needs then quit talking about unification and talk about what you really want - the recognition of your pathetic state.

I want you to accept that we too have rights (as a people). You do not accept this. Your rights are absolute and invioable. To you when I talk of our rights (as defined in the very same charters you used to highlight your rights) you reply that such is a request for you to 'pander to our needs'.
The fact is you want to deny our rights as a people. If this is your position (GC have rights and they are the most important thing - yet TC as a people have no rights or they are less important than your rights) then there is little chance of viable unification in my view. In such a senario I would take my second option of agreed partition.

To re cap the discussion so far (as I see it)

It is suggested there can be no compromise on any GC indiduals rights at all. I point out that TC have rights too as a people and that total and absolute exercise of our rights as a people are not compatible with total and absolute execrsie of your rights - and thus the only sensible appraoch is for both sides to AGREE to limit their total and absolute rights to achieve a greater goal of peace and harmony in a unite Cyprus. At this point you tell me that actualy TC peoples rights are not really real - just the rights of individuals. When I ask on what basis you make this claim that our rights are less important than yours, you insult me and accuse me of wanting things I havce never said I want.

So Mikkie2 do you continue to inist that the TC peoples human rights are 'not real' or not as important as GC indivduals rights? If you do then we are still back at 1960 and agreed seperation would seem the only way forward.

If you can accept that we have rights as a people and that they are as real and as important and valid as your rights then we can start to talk about a united Cyprus. If however you think you have rights and we just have 'demands to be pandered too) then again we are back at 1960.

If you accept we have rights and you have rights and neither takes precedence and that the total exercise of each inevitable impinges on the other - then lets get down to the serious business of agreeing what limits we can each accept in order to gain peace and unity.

[metecyp]

It is suggested there can be no compromise on any GC indiduals rights at all. I point out that TC have rights too as a people and that total and absolute exercise of our rights as a people are not compatible with total and absolute execrsie of your rights - and thus the only sensible appraoch is for both sides to AGREE to limit their total and absolute rights to achieve a greater goal of peace and harmony in a unite Cyprus. At this point you tell me that actualy TC peoples rights are not really real - just the rights of individuals. When I ask on what basis you make this claim that our rights are less important than yours, you insult me and accuse me of wanting things I havce never said I want.

This is exactly the heart of the problem. We're yet to see a sensible reply from our GC friends. Everytime we get to this point in a discussion, we're (TC members) either accussed of being thieves, wanting to live off their backs, or wanting to make GC 2nd class citizens and so on. It's the same cycle again.

[Piratis]

I am sorry, but I didn't get an answer why Kerinia, Famagusta, Morphou or any other area where TCs were "numerically less" should have anything to do with the TC "self determination".
Can any of you answer this?

[erolz]

I am sorry, but I didn't get an answer why Kerinia, Famagusta, Morphou or any other area where TCs were "numerically less" should have anything to do with the TC "self determination".
Can any of you answer this?

I have not replied to you because it feels there is little point in doing so most of the time.

I have explained that talking about the TC peoples human rights and how they clash with GC rights and why therefore there needs to be acceptance on both sides of this and acceptance of some compromise is not an argument that justifes what the senario in cyprus today. It is a different subject entirely.

The 'conversation' went

There can be no compromise on total and abdolute rights of GC.

I point out that TC as a people also have rights which are no more or less valid or relevant than GC rights and that these rights can and do clash with those of GC and in such a senario it is necessary for both sides to ACCEPT some compromise on their absolute rights in order to achieve true peace and harmony in Cyprus.

In response I have been told that actualy our rights as a people 'to not really count' like GC indivduals rights count (along with some insults and unsupported accusations). You have constantly asked why this means that TC should control that part of the Island that they currently do. To ask this is totaly miss the whole point of the discussion. Saying that TC have rights and that these rights can and do clash with rights of GC and therefore both parties need to accept some compromise and limits on their rights for a greater goal of peace and harmony in Cy[prus (and the chance of building a Cypriot nation and society where all these issues disolve over time) is not saying this is the reason why we currently control area X or Y or Z. There are resons why we control these areas currently - but the TC right to self determination is not the reason and despite your attempts to claim this what I have said and am saying it is not.

The discussion was about can and should GC accept any limitations on their total and absolute rights in order to achieve peace and harmony.

I simply point out that the TC also have rights. That these rights have been denied by GC in the past and are still being denied today by GC like yourself that insist we can have no self determiation at all as a right - only as a gift of GC (given under duress) and that if we agree to limit our total and absolute right to self determiatnion - this is not a compromise at all and thus does not need to be balanced by any compromise by GC.

That is what the discussion has been about. Ypou seem reluctant to discuss this issue - instead preferring to distract from this point with unrelated issues.

Why do we currently control the areas you list above. I could easily answer that the reason we currently control these areas is that GC have been determine to deny TC any right to self determination since the inception of the RoC and this ultimately lead to the use of force to take what you refused to give (and more). Not fair, not just perhaps but a direct result of GC insistance that we can not have ANY right to self determination as a right (only as a gift) which is still the position of GC like yourselves today.
The fact is there has never been a point in the history of Cyprus (including till today) where the GC were willing to accept an agreed seperation of the two communites - so saying why did we not just take self determination of those areas we were dominant in in 1960 is just a ridiculous qiuestion. We did not do this because you would not allow this solution - ever. Not in 60 and not today. You would not agree seperation then and you would not accept out rights as a people. This stubborness is what led to miltary action in Cyprus. That that action led to you loosing more than we originaly wanted is at least as much your fault as ours. That you still insist today that we give back what we took at the same time as continuing to insist that we have no rights as a people and must submit ourselves as a people to GC benevolence does not change the above in any way.
In summary

You have rights
We have rights
Neither side can have total absolute exercise of their rights without affectig the rights of the other. Thus if we want peace and harmony we must agree to accept limits on these rights.
Denying that we have rights (as a people) is a major part of what has gotten us into this mess in the first place and keeps in this mess today.
Talking about the unfairness of the situation today, or how all TC are thieves motivated by greed or how turks are all mureders and rapists and theives does not change the reality of the above.

Insisting that their can be no compromise on GC rights will not lead to peace and harmony on Cyprus.
Continuing to deny that we have any such rights and only talking about GC rights will not lead to peace and harmony in Cyprus.

[boulio]

as usual alot of blah blah and no answer

[erolz]

as usual alot of blah blah and no answer

You confuse not getting the answer you want with not getting an answer at all.

[Piratis]

as usual alot of blah blah and no answer

Thats right.

They want to limit our human rights because of some kind of vague "self determination" they claim they have that includes whatever they decide it includes (even the things that clearly do not belong to them).

Anyways ...

[erolz]

as usual alot of blah blah and no answer

Thats right.

They want to limit our human rights because of some kind of vague "self determination" they claim they have that includes whatever they decide it includes (even the things that clearly do not belong to them).

Anyways ...

Sigh

The right to self determination is no more vague than any of your rights and it was also the basis for the end of British rule. You are the one that wants to chose some human rights as paramount and ignore others as suits your interests. The right to self determination includes just that - a right to self determination. I have never said that this right justifies the current status quo in cyprus. I have said that GC continued (right up till this last post of yours) denial of TC rights as a people has played a major and dominant part in the mess we are in today. The simple truth is you continue to deny our rights whilst insisting we concern ourselves with nothig except yours. No wonder then we are in such a mess today. No wonder we are no closer to a solution today.

What is vague about the right to self determination?
Where have I said that the right to self determiantion justifes the current status quo?

We are willing to discuss limits on our absolute rights to achieve peace. You are not willing to even accept we have such rights. This is your idea of compromise?