Cyprus-Forum.com

[cannedmoose]

Thats a bunch of crap.

Firstly, you may hold strong views Piratis, but I'd be grateful if you treat my posts with the same courtesy that I afford to yours. I may disagree with you, but I say it politely as I respect your right to say them. Do me the same honour.

You are also being disingenuous about what I said. At no point did I say that ALL TC's are 'pro-agreement', this is nonsensical. When I referred to 'pro-agreement', I was referring to pro-Annan agreement. To clarify, what I said is that there is a greater sentiment in the north towards reconciling the issues and moving on. They recognise that without a solution, the stagnation of their state will continue (relative to the south) and the prosperity that they see across the line will be out of their reach. Therefore, although they are not willing to accept ANY plan, there is a greater readiness to compromise on certain issues.

Which brings me to the GC's. Again, at no point did I label GCs as 'anti-agreement', although with the wholesale rejection of Annan V, both popularly and by the leading political elite, I think this label fits quite neatly.

As for your continuing damnation of the British bases, you may as well get used to them because there is no way they will be removed. Annan V forsaw their significant reduction in size, but whatever happens they will stay. In this respect, you are right about the British and Americans, they are looking after their interests in any agreement and the only interest they have in Cyprus are the bases, not as staging posts but for the espionage facilities. Beyond that, in the age of intercontinental strategic reach, Cyprus is relatively unimportant as a strategic foothold. As for Britain failing as a guarantor, all the guarantors failed, so when are you expecting the Greek base near Paphos to be dismantled?

As Alex wrote, and as I said in my previous post, the only REAL solution is a popular solution. Reunification/reconciliation/solution cannot be imposed from the top-down, it's got to be a 'bottom-up' movement. The fall of the Iron Curtain around Hungary in 1989 was a result of a popular movement, similarly so was the fall of the Berlin Wall. Therefore, even as an 'outsider', I would fully support the idea of a 'Civil Society Constitutional Assembly', so long as it included people from all points of view, especially those like Piratis who I would label as the 'hardliners'. Without a lead from the people, the leaders in Cyprus will continue to drive the agenda rather than be real democrats and listen to what the people really want. If you need international observers for such an assembly, I would be happy to volunteer (and no Piratis, I wouldn't be there to spy for my government!)

To be a wholly democratic and open process, any such assembly needs to craft a plan gradually and slowly, with each paragraph open to discussion and debate. Much as the House of Commons works in the UK, there needs to be a debate on each issue, with everyone welcome to contribute and where possible their concerns built into the final draft. The final draft should also ultimately be subject to amendment and voting to ensure as many as possible are on board.

[erolz]

This process is not catered to the "hardliners" (like me, you or Piratis, or Denktash or Papadopoulos or any representative of foreign interests and countries), who think their way is the only way. I want a more “grass- roots”, a more democratic process. At the end of the day, you and I will get the chance to vote "yes" or "no" to a plan that is put forward by 50+% of the peoples' representatives. If our vote is NO, but we fall with a 50-% groups, we should be prepared to accept the voice of the majority of our community. If we should respect democracy with "equality", as you have said many times, we should be able to agree to this process.

Like I said the idea has much merit (as does alexandros' similar proposal). I am all for a 'more democratic and more 'grass roots' approach. I am also happy to abide the will of the majority of TC. So how do go about actualy doing thsi then. Also how do you forsee the hardliners and existing politicians on each side reacting to such a proposal and how do we take it to referenda on each side without political support to do so?

[Piratis]

Again, at no point did I label GCs as 'anti-agreement', although with the wholesale rejection of Annan V, both popularly and by the leading political elite, I think this label fits quite neatly.

I am sorry cannedmoose, but when you manage to contradict yourself in the very same sentence then I don't know how else I can describe what you say.

When I referred to 'pro-agreement', I was referring to pro-Annan agreement.

Ok, lets ignore your contradictory statement and lets stick with this. The TCs were pro-Annan agreement, the GCs were anti-Annan agreement, and this is the obvious. If the plan was not 90% of the Turkish demands but 90% of our demands, then we would be pro-agreement and they would be anti-agreement.
So giving such labels is pointless.
What is the point is to see whether on not this agreement was a good one. For me, with so many violations of basic human rights, permanent derogations from the EU laws, and all the other "ingredients" that would make Cyprus an undemocratic banana republic protectorate of Turkey, this plan was a bad one and we are perfectly justified to reject it.
I am sure if such plan was for your country you would reject it too, however you believe that we are second category EU citizens, your former(?) slaves, that we should not demand the same rights that you have.

[Alexandros Lordos]

I think many of us here are grappling with a similar sentiment, namely that the people should be more closely involved in deciding what the final solution should look like ... perhaps my "methodology" is slightly different from Insan's, or Pantelis's, but basically we are all saying the same thing ...

Maybe we are all part of a wider social current, a current that says "we can not leave it to the UN or to a couple of leaders with their own agendas any longer, we have to take this matter into our own hands" ...

The million-dollar question (forgive me for the americanized expression ) is how?

Perhaps what I am doing now with the polls is a good way to go about this. Polls are representative of the population, no one can accuse polls results, for instance, of being elitist, as Erol fears.

If we test various different solution options through polls, simultaneous and identical polls on both sides, breaking the solution down in little pieces as Pantelis says, then we will begin to understand where the succesful compromises are to be found ...

Basically, people, I am asking for help: I believe we really can make a difference through a process of this type, but the impact will be greater if more of us are involved, because then the questions we will ask are going to be more truly representative of everyone's concerns ...

I've asked for help before, in order to prepare the questionnaire for the Turkish Cypriots, but very few responded ... so in the end I only asked those questions which I thought made sense ...

Anyway, I am planning to do another round of polling now, so if anyone would like to be a part of this please let me know.

[Piratis]

The million-dollar question (forgive me for the americanized expression ) is how?

I believe it is simply not possible. The brtish have executed perfectly their divide and rule policies, fully taking advantage of the CG nationalism and luck of vision of those times, and the partition for 30 years has re-enforced into the heads of Turkish Cypriots the ideas that controlling part of the island in an independent way, and "political equality" of two unequally sized communities are things fair and right.
Under such circumstances, even if the powerful were allowing us to try to do such thing now, it is unfortunately doomed to fail. I hope I am wrong.

Only a change of balance of power can bring a solution. The same way we got used to the idea that some things that we considered "must have" will actually need to be compromised (e.g. return of all refugees, deporting of all settlers etc), a change of balance of power will force Turkey to "re-educate" TCs about what their demands and expectations should be.
If this change of balance does not happen, no permanent solution will be found.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Piratis,

though I respect your often repeated view that political equality between communities is totally unacceptable, I must say I do not personally agree with you - and furthermore (unless my figures are all wrong) neither do the majority of Greek Cypriots.

So, even though you are right to say that under the current balance of power TCs would not accept a "one-man, one-vote system", this does not mean that a compromise is impossible - because GCs can accept this most central of TC demands.

Surely you, as a "one-man one-vote" kind of person, can accept this verdict of the majority of Greek Cypriots ....

[Saint Jimmy]

I must say I do not personally agree with you - and furthermore (unless my figures are all wrong) neither do the majority of Greek Cypriots.

OK, Alex, but how do we know that someone who claims to accept equality between communities, means the kind of equality we are talking about here? I mean, it could be a perceptual issue, or even an ignorance issue. Am I wrong?

[Alexandros Lordos]

I must say I do not personally agree with you - and furthermore (unless my figures are all wrong) neither do the majority of Greek Cypriots.

OK, Alex, but how do we know that someone who claims to accept equality between communities, means the kind of equality we are talking about here? I mean, it could be a perceptual issue, or even an ignorance issue. Am I wrong?

I guess it could be, but every single derogation that pertains to political equality that I tested, got betwen 30-40% of GCs to consider it absolutely essential. This wouldn't have happened if a random factor like ignorance was involved.

[pantelis]

The problem is TRUST.
The TCs are naive. They think that since the GCs outnumber them ( for the time being), they are also united they and they would gung up to pass discriminative laws specific for TCs.
Yes, the GCs are very united!
They are as much united as TCs are.
If the GCs try to pass laws that will be good only for GCs, the TC representatives, with their political equality power, would unite and vote down these pro-GC laws or taxes.

Wake up my friends. The days when the people depended on the leaders and a few regime-controlled media to know and understand what is going on around them, are over.

If "political equality" is what it takes to grow the first seeds of peace and unification and make everyone feel at home on this small island, why not? I don't think this "political equality" is going to be bad for Cyprus. It will be an added insurance that our "wise" "self-centered politicians will not come together to screw up one more time. The political leaders of the TCs will be there to stop them. Right? It will be an added insurance for all the people. Right?
The GC people would depend on the TC politicians to protect their interests and the TC people would depend on the GC politicians to prevent the TC politicians from screwing up their interests. The people will be happy and the politicians will be sad! Right?
When it come to individuals human rights, those will be safeguarded by the EU norms. The environment will be protected by EU regulations, etc etc.

Dear Pirati, or eanyonce else,
Please give me examples, where your personal rights or interests could be violated or compromised, because of a possible vote-down by a "united" Turkish Cypriot vote.

[Alexandros Lordos]

The GC people would depend on the TC politicians to protect their interests and the TC people would depend on the GC politicians to prevent the TC politicians from screwing up their interests. The people will be happy and the politicians will be sad!

LOL!

I also believe Political Equality will help everyone to become more mature ... GCs will learn their limits and TCs will learn the responsibility of power.