Cyprus-Forum.com

[Greek Cypriot]

Annan's plan is not a good plan for Cyprus. That said we all know the balance of power in the area, and we all hope for a true united Cyprus to become reality one day.
The plan as it is today can not be accepted, but some changes might make it bearable and more people might be willing to take the risk and vote yes to the referendum.

Some of the changes I would like to see in that direction are:

1)The special majority (veto) that is required for decisions to be taken by the central government to exist only on specific and defined matters of great importance.

2)To set a specific time (5-10-20 years) that all restrictions in movement, settlement etc should be lifted.

3)To set a specific time (5-10-20 years) that both Turkish and Greek troops should leave Cyprus. (If we could do the same for the British troops that would be even better)

4)Turkey to take a big part of the costs associated with the solution. If we will have to pay for everything we will go bankrupt. Others (British, Americans etc) should also help.


These are the major things, that if changed the plan will become more bearbale for our site and we will be able to take the risk and vote for it.

As you can see, I have no problem with a transitional period as long as this period is defined. I have no problem to have a TC president every 20 months. I can accept that some Turkish settlers will stay, I can accept that restristions will be in place for several years until trust is build, I can accept the presence of Turkish army for some time, I can accept that the 18% minority will have a federal state of 25% of the land.
I think I am very compromising, and please don't try to say that I am not because I can not accept all your unfair demands.

There are some other issues that we need to look at (e.g that thing with foreign judges!!!) but the above I think are the main ones.

[metecyp]

1)The special majority (veto) that is required for decisions to be taken by the central government to exist only on specific and defined matters of great importance.

I agree. Veto should be used only in very important (eg. national security) matters or where the balance of the structure is in jeopardy.

2)To set a specific time (5-10-20 years) that all restrictions in movement, settlement etc should be lifted.

I can agree for 20 years. I think we need at least 20 years (a generation) of peace and coexistence before we can be sure that we can live together with no restrictions. I also believe this specific time should be able to be negotiable in the future, if one side (i.e. T/C side) is not ready for it yet. So, let's say 20 years for now.

3)To set a specific time (5-10-20 years) that both Turkish and Greek troops should leave Cyprus. (If we could do the same for the British troops that would be even better)

I agree with this as well. Here I can accept 10 years. But considering the current situation of world politics, I'm sure Turkey and Greece would want to have some soldiers on the island. I wouldn't mind this if this number is limited to not more than 1000-2000 soldiers for both sides.

4)Turkey to take a big part of the costs associated with the solution. If we will have to pay for everything we will go bankrupt. Others (British, Americans etc) should also help.

I'm sure Turkey will help but we shouldn't expect too much from Turkey, given its poor economic condition. I think US and EU should guarantee for financial help before any agreement is signed, so we agree again.

Help maybe we agree on more things than we think. All these changes are reasonable, so what are we arguing about then?

[PEACE]

I can accept that the 18% minority will have a federal state of 25% of the land.

2)To set a specific time (5-10-20 years) that all restrictions in movement, settlement etc should be lifted.

These both can't be together ! We can't have a federal state when system's balance's spoil ! You know that.

Why don't you say what you want briefly and clearly!? Why are you saying this to mislead us that you want a federal solution?

Why don't u say "I WANT ONLY ONE GOVERMENT THAT MAJORITY WILL DECIDE EVERTHING AND I DON'T WANT THAT MINORITY TO HAVE A CONSTITUTIONAL STATE"

[PEACE]

Anyway suppose we all accepted all of these :

1)The special majority (veto) that is required for decisions to be taken by the central government to exist only on specific and defined matters of great importance.

2)To set a specific time (5-10-20 years) that all restrictions in movement, settlement etc should be lifted.

3)To set a specific time (5-10-20 years) that both Turkish and Greek troops should leave Cyprus. (If we could do the same for the British troops that would be even better)

4)Turkey to take a big part of the costs associated with the solution.

So, What are your concensions that you are going to give us as a response to all we accepted?

[Guest]

So, What are your concensions that you are going to give us as a response to all we accepted?

You don't sound like you want a solution but like you are trying to get as many benefits for yourself as you can.

What I proposed meets most of your demands, most of which are unfair anyways.

You have to understand that if a solution is to be found it should be something that will benefit both of us. What I propose benefits you a lot more than us, but you still ask for more. What did you think? That I will reduce my wellbeing to increase yours, just because you will call me "friend" if I do that? I can go find friends elsewhere that they respect me and my rights more than you do. Friendship and peace are not empty words that are used whenever is suits us.

--------------------

Please take a note. PEACE can actually be considered of the most progressive TC, and you can see his views on this matter.
Do you understand now why I do not believe that anything will change in the future if we leave these changes on the goodwill of TC?

What the leadership and the majority of TC demand for is a disguised independent state with just enough "union" with us as it would be needed so they can enter the EU. As I said already we will be more separate with TC than we will be with any other country of the EU.

[metecyp]

I can go find friends elsewhere that they respect me and my rights more than you do.

Yeah, remember he just joined to his brother's gang, so he'll have plenty of friends to play with soon, he doesn't need us. Besides how can you talk about respecting rights, when you just called me stupid yesterday just because I'm of Turkish origin? Let me teach you another saying "You get what you give."

Friendship and peace are not empty words that are used whenever is suits us.

Don't try to lecture us on these issues, especially peace. T/Cs are the ones that need and want peace. For you, peace in Cyprus is an added bonus to your internationally recognized EU member state. As far as friendship goes, I consider all G/Cs as my friends, I have no problem with ordinary people, except people like you who consider ethnicity as a sign of stupidity.

[Greek Cypriot.]

I never used the word "stupid" or any synonym !!!

What I said is my opinion, and in democracy my friend I am free to express it as freely as you are allowed to express yours. We do not leave in Turkey that expressing your opinion can send you to jail.

Sure, my mistake to try to lecture Turks about peace. They are such a peace loving nation, there history can proove it

Metecyp, has saying in his signature:
"An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind" -Gandhi

The other sayings that he told us in here are:
"What goes around comes around"
and now: "You get what you give"


Anyways. With this post I tried to find some comon ground, but probably I am loosing my time.

[metecyp]

I never used the word "stupid" or any synonym !!!

You did say "Being a Turk you don't understand these things" which is another way of implying stupidity using ethnicity as a reason. Don't deny what you said, at least try to stand behind what you say!

What I said is my opinion, and in democracy my friend I am free to express it as freely as you are allowed to express yours. We do not leave in Turkey that expressing your opinion can send you to jail.

Sure you can say whatever you want but racism is never allowed in democracies, for your information. For example, in USA nobody can say "Turks are stupid" But I guess I shouldn't blame you. Being a racist, you don't realize these things.

Sure, my mistake to try to lecture Turks about peace. They are such a peace loving nation, there history can proove it

You're so ignorant that you consider Turkish Cypriots and Turks simply the same. Ask any Turkish Cypriot and he will tell you how different Turks and Turkish Cypriots are. Nevertheless, this doesn't mean that we don't share some basic Turkish cultural characteristics, like we share certain cultural characteristics with Greek Cypriots (Now you object to this claim too)

Metecyp, has saying in his signature:
"An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind" -Gandhi
The other sayings that he told us in here are:
"What goes around comes around"
and now: "You get what you give"

Good, you're learning. Maybe you should try to think about what these sayings mean too sometimes.

Anyways. With this post I tried to find some comon ground, but probably I am loosing my time.

Common ground is only possible if the two sides are sensitive towards each other. I spent so much time trying to convince you to at least show some kind of understanding towards T/C position.

[Greek Cypriot]

You did say "Being a Turk you don't understand these things" which is another way of implying stupidity using ethnicity as a reason. Don't deny what you said, at least try to stand behind what you say!

And if you go read my post you will see that these things I was refering to was democracy. I didn't say you are stupid. Is just a fact that people that grew up under different systems have problems to understand how systems like democracy works. They simply do not have the same sensitivities about democratic matters. I don't say this. I've heared many scientists talking about democracy is middle east arab countries and these analysts said how hard would be to implement democracy there from one day to another simply because people do have it in their cultures.
So, maybe you are a bit of a hypocrite (those sayings) but I never believed you are stupid and I never said such thing.

You're so ignorant that you consider Turkish Cypriots and Turks simply the same. Ask any Turkish Cypriot and he will tell you how different Turks and Turkish Cypriots are. Nevertheless, this doesn't mean that we don't share some basic Turkish cultural characteristics, like we share certain cultural characteristics with Greek Cypriots (Now you object to this claim too)

No, I call you what you want to be called because I believe this is fair. Some people here say that most TC are GC that changed their faith and became muslims during the ottoman empire.
I have no problem either way, but I believe you prefer to be called Turkish Cypriots, and not Cypriot muslims, right?

Common ground is only possible if the two sides are sensitive towards each other. I spent so much time trying to convince you to at least show some kind of understanding towards T/C position.

In the beging of this thread I have several "I accept". All those do not count as understanding towards T/C position?

[metecyp]

I've heared many scientists talking about democracy is middle east arab countries and these analysts said how hard would be to implement democracy there from one day to another simply because people do have it in their cultures.

Ok fair, I also believe that democracy might not be compatible in some hardcore Islamic societies (eg. Saudi Arabia). But why are you trying to potray Turkish Cypriot culture
1- as something like Arab culture?
2- as something foreign to your culture?

The defining characteristics of Turkish Cypriot culture is not Islamic. So you cannot argue that T/Cs are not compatible with democracy due to their Islamic culture.

Now, you can claim that T/Cs are Turks and Turks are not compatible with democracy. Even if I agree with Turks being incompatible with democracy, you're stil wrong. T/Cs came to the island in 1571 and Turkish and Greek Cypriots lived together until 1974. So 400 years were more than enough time to get used to values of the other culture (G/C) and 30 years from 1974 is not enough to get rid of the values accumulated in the last 400 years.

Therefore, your claim "Being a Turk you might not understand these things (democracy)" is wrong due to:
1- Turkish Cypriot culture is not equal to Turkish or Islamic culture as you might think. Yes, T/C culture has elements from both but none of these elements are strong enough to refute democracy.
2- Turkish Cypriot culture is not a completely seperate entity from Greek Cypriot culture as you might think. So if G/C are compatible with democracy, so are T/Cs.

I have no problem either way, but I believe you prefer to be called Turkish Cypriots, and not Cypriot muslims, right?

Yes I prefer to be called Turkish Cypriot, not a Turk, not a Muslim, or anything else because these names (Turk, Muslim etc.) although are part of my identity, they do not describe my culture entirely, whereas Turkish Cypriot does.