Cyprus-Forum.com

[Alexandros Lordos]

Although I definitely agree that GCs should be in direct talks with TCs , do you think that if this was done on a continuous basis, maybe Turkey could claim since you talk with the north you recognize it so lift the damn embargoes?

Well, I am not saying that there should be "continuous talks" outside of UN auspices, but the occasional meeting - even under the current circumstances - would help a lot to create a more constructive climate. Besides, we do recognise the TCs as a community, and the leader of the GC community has always been in dialogue with the leader of the TC community.

And besides, whatever Turkey says or doesn't say doesn't really make a difference - it's just words. We did not shy from voting "No" last April, hoping that the wider socio-political dynamics would lead us to a solution eventually, and we are afraid that meeting with Talat will somehow ... lead to partition? I don't see it ...

[Bananiot]

Here is another example:

Papadopoulos refuses to meet Talat on the grounds that by so doing he would "upgrade" his status. Yet, he had no problem meeting the pseudo-government’s "foreign minister" Serdar Denktash, for secret dinners at his residence. But that was for a worthy cause – he was seeking Serdar’s co-operation so they could jointly kill off the possibility of a settlement (from the CM)

About his partner Christofias

Christofias, meanwhile, has linked his political future to that of Papadopoulos. For there to be a solution, it has to be supported by the leadership of AKEL. But for AKEL to support a solution, its leadership must first clash with Papadopoulos, who is opposed to it. But Christofias, we should remember, is the man who made Papadopoulos president; he personally chose him as the AKEL candidate.

In 2002, he knelt on many AKEL members unhappy at his decision to force them to accept Papadopoulos as the party’s candidate. He went as far as to threaten to expel party members who disagreed. He cannot now appear before these people and admit that he led the party to the same monumental blunder for a third time – electing a rejectionist president – without announcing his resignation.

This would mean the end of the House presidency and the AKEL leadership for him. The son of the poor Dikomo farmer would lose his status and all the trappings of power he so much relishes. A man, whose dream was to own a nice bicycle, is driven around by a chauffeur in a brand new Mercedes, is surrounded by bodyguards, has attention lavished on him by everyone and travels in luxury to all corners of the world. Would he give up all of this for the sake of a settlement? And there is another ambition at the back of his mind – standing for the presidency in three years’ time (Also frm the CM).

[MicAtCyp]

Ok, here are some of the noneconomical reasons.
1- Live in a legal and recognized state.
2- Get rid of the uncertainty in terms of properties in the north
3- Get rid of the Turkish influence in the north so TCs can finally make decisions on their own (with GCs of course)
4- Get rid of the heavy military structure in the north that affects every aspect of life in the north. Young TCs do not have to go to the military anymore.
5- Be able to participate in international events (like UEFA as an example).
6- Stop the incoming Turkish settlers.
7- Create the environment for many TCs not to migrate to other countries and TCs already migrated to return back to Cyprus.

Metecyp I asked you for the MAIN REASON. I suggested the main reason is economic. While the way you answered seems you agree on that you listed me also some other reasons half of which like 1,2,6(?), and 7 eventually translate to economic.In case I am wrong so far please correct me.

In case I am not, then your answer is satisfactory, and the additional reasons 1-7 well appreciated.

TCs need a solution in order to survive on the island...

Well said! I couldn’t agree more. It is your human right to want that.

If anything, it is the hardline position that you often display that will cement the partition of the island.

Am I supposed to reply to unsupported and personal opinion statements? I gave you the reasons why some of those measures are going to cement partition, Turkcyp gave you another explanation, I agree the rest of the measures are fine, I even proposed one.....Please answer to my arguments with arguments, not with statements of your personal opinion.

PS. If my position is "hardline" I can equally say my personal opinion about your position is that of tossing a coin and whatever will be will be.

[brother]

Micatcyp,

i would like to answer the question why TC want solution according to the many people i have spoken to.

Majority suggest that they are fed up of living in an almost police state with soilders everywhere, also many want the economic benefits that would come from solution as 30 years in no-mans land has taken its toll and looking at the south which is propering shows them what they are missing.
The most profound answer i got was the want for peace and live on an island where their children have no fear of war or the millatary service and a prosperous future with no need to migrate off the island.
Also most would like to see the end of the tide of settlers coming in.

These are answers from tc i got who have never left the island and are living through all its ups and downs.

[-mikkie2-]

Brother,

That is all very well and good. Greek Cypriots want the same thing. However, the problem is when you 'elect' politicians half the voters ARE settlers. The dynamics that drive the northen political scene are complex because they take account of the Turkish influence that many of you want to see diminish. Unfortunately what we see on our side is exactly the opposite - the continued influence of Turkey in the north! The fact that half the voters are settlers means that the Turkish influence is being enhanced in the north.

I personally suspect that many TC's do think the way you suggest but in many cases are afraid to actually voice thier true opinions for fear of reprisals. Am I right in saying that people fear to openly say what they think?

[insan]

As it was proved in Alexandros' survey; it is obvious that TCs want to integrate with GC community slowly and safely. It seems to me that a slow and safe integration of two communities does not suit the leadership of "RoC" agenda.

The leadership of "RoC" still exerting hard to impose its will upon TC community for recognition of "RoC" with its current defacto form, majority rule, return of all GC refugees, withdrawal of all Turkish troops, withdrawal of majority? of settlers, restrictions on political rights of settlers, nullification of treaty of guarantee and alliance.


This is the message Tassos and his crew clearly are giving to TCs and Turkey.


You guess how much the chances are for a compromised solution while we keep hearing these messages coming from the other side both prior of referanda and afterwards the referanda.

[MicAtCyp]

2. Stop exaggerating about the number of settlers. It is ridiculous to be saying that there are two settlers for every Turkish Cypriot, and it undermines the respect of GCs for the TC community.

Sener Levent article #526198 at Politis on 22/2/05

Besides these elections are not TC elections. Since the vast majority of the voters were mainland Turks, to what kind of TC Political will can we refer to?

Whats the meaning of vast majority to you Alexandre?

[brother]

mikkie,

in the north amongst ourselves we say it as i have written but openly it is always advisable to be cautious, its not just officially but also the settlers can be a source of fear, some years ago in a cafe i voiced the opinion that curbs should be put on settlers and i ended fighting my way out of there, for days after they looked for me and i ended leaving cyprus premuturely.

[cannedmoose]

Am I supposed to reply to unsupported and personal opinion statements? I gave you the reasons why some of those measures are going to cement partition, Turkcyp gave you another explanation, I agree the rest of the measures are fine, I even proposed one.....Please answer to my arguments with arguments, not with statements of your personal opinion.

I won't mention your display of double standards MicAtCyp. However, point noted.

As for the numbers of settlers, until there's an independent census, none of us know the true story. The most reliable figures I've seen come from the Council of Europe, using 2001 figures (link below):

Turkish Cypriots: 87,600 (down from 118,000 in 1974)
Turkish Nationals: 115,000

So a majority, but hardly a vast majority. However, the longer this debacle continues, the wider the gap between the two will become as TCs continue to seek better opportunities elsewhere. Then, the partition will certainly be cemented.

http://assembly.coe.int/Documents/Adopt ... EC1608.htm

http://assembly.coe.int/Documents/Worki ... OC9799.htm

[metecyp]

Metecyp I asked you for the MAIN REASON. I suggested the main reason is economic. While the way you answered seems you agree on that you listed me also some other reasons half of which like 1,2,6(?), and 7 eventually translate to economic.In case I am wrong so far please correct me.

Do I believe that economic reasons are part of the reason? Yes. Do I believe that they are the main reason? No. How can you claim that 1,2,6, and 7 are mainly economic? Yes, they do have some economic results but they're not completely economic. Any solution will have economic benefits for TCs because the current situation is an economic disaster for TCs and if you dig hard enough, you can find economic benefits in everything. It's one thing to say "TCs have some economic benefits from a solution" (which I agree and that's how it should be because we're the ones sufferring economically under these conditions) and it's another thing to say "TCs want a solution so they can steal what we earned with hard work all these years". I think you meant the latter, that's why I replied with the real reasons which might have some economic translations.

Sener Levent article #526198 at Politis on 22/2/05

You seem to think that Sener Levent is a God or something. I read his articles daily and he often exaggerates situations to support his arguments. For example, a year ago or so, he said there're 10.000 TCs working in the south daily and later it was discovered that it was only 5000-6000 people. Same goes with the number of settlers. I remember once he claimed that the settler number can reach up to a million in the north which we all know that is impossible.