Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Yeah, I agree with that, but, unless I got something wrong, the first option of the poll refers to the committee's right to prosecute, not convict.

I was referring to the second option were a committee will say "MR. X is a criminal" and stop there. So option 2 is not an option really. Is either 1 or nothing.

If that's what you mean, then I'll pass. Apologies if I've misinterpreted what you were trying to say.

Yes you misinterpreted. I did say "bygones be bygones" and that we should apply justice from now on, but this "bygones" include both sides. I didn't say that we should convict TCs that were illegally occupying our homes for 30 years, the people of TMT, the Turkish soldiers etc, and forget about the crimes of GCs only. I said to just forget about the crimes of both sides and start fresh with justice from now on.

I am not saying this because I wouldn't like to see justice being applied for past actions, I say this because I highly doubt we will be able to do such thing properly, and while some people will be convicted some others will get away with it. (who will convict the Turkish soldiers/officers that created the atrocities of 74 for example?)
This is why I believe that the "bygones be bygones" approach is the least bad one.

[erolz]

I was referring to the second option were a committee will say "MR. X is a criminal" and stop there. So option 2 is not an option really. Is either 1 or nothing.

The prime 'example' of a T&RC is the one held in SA after the fall of aparthied. My understanding is that they were of the 'option 2' type. That is those people who gave testimony (thus help to establish truth) could not have this testiomy used in evidence against them. The whole point was not about establishing who was guilty so they could be punished. The whole point was to try and find out and document as much 'truth' about the period so that it could be laid to reat and reconcilliation could begin. This is my personal prefereance for a Cypriot T&RC. Establish truth - not seek to establish guilt and prosecute. I believe option 2 is a viable option as I understand it was viable in SA and do not see why it is not viable here then (unless I have misunderstood the SA T&RC totaly)

[Saint Jimmy]

Yes you misinterpreted. I did say "bygones be bygones" and that we should apply justice from now on, but this "bygones" include both sides. I didn't say that we should convict TCs that were illegally occupying our homes for 30 years, the people of TMT, the Turkish soldiers etc, and forget about the crimes of GCs only. I said to just forget about the crimes of both sides and start fresh with justice from now on.

Dude, I'm obviously missing something, because the way I read what you wrote, it's like you're saying 'all right, we fucked up, they fucked up, forget it. There's no way out of it, let's just cut it loose.' That's what I'm hearing, anyway.
So, if no GCs are to be punished for what they've done, and you accept the principle that if no GCs are to be punished, then no TCs are going to be punished, that means... that we leave 1974 behind us...? What of getting (part of) our property back then?
GC 'A' has killed a TC. You are saying we leave it behind, and he gets away with it.
Turkey is occupying Cyprus. Should they get away with it, too?

[Piratis]

Ok, I don't know anything about the T&RC in SA.

Would this committee come out and say "Mr. X did such and such"? In this case, can Mr X go to the courts in case he believes he is innocent? If the courts can not prove he is guilty, can Mr. X sue the committee demanding compensations?

[Piratis]

St. Jimmy, I said that we should leave the past behind. Not that the violations of human rights and the crimes should continue.

If I come and and steal your money, and after some time I return some part of that money back to you, you consider this as punishment for me??

Turkey is occupying Cyprus. Should they get away with it, too?

for the past yes, they will get away with it. Except if you believe there is any way of forcing them to give us compensations for the 30 years of occupation, and putting Ecevit and the generals in jail.

[erolz]

Ok, I don't know anything about the T&RC in SA.

Would this committee come out and say "Mr. X did such and such"? In this case, can Mr X go to the courts in case he believes he is innocent? If the courts can not prove he is guilty, can Mr. X sue the committee demanding compensations?

Some more information here

http://www.doj.gov.za/trc/trccom.htm

and interesting article here

http://www.weltpolitik.net/Regionen/Afr ... ssion.html

I will do some more research on this and post what I find.

[Saint Jimmy]

for the past yes, they will get away with it. Except if you believe there is any way of forcing them to give us compensations for the 30 years of occupation, and putting Ecevit and the generals in jail.

OK, so does this mean that you are willing to accept the A-Plan's clause that GCs forego their right to sue Turkey in the ECHR for deprivation of their property for the last 30 years? I would think that you are not...?
That's a way of forcing them to compensate...

[-mikkie2-]

I think there would be a problem in establishing the truth when people that perpertrated crimes are still alive. How can we stop vendettas and people taking the law into their own hands? This is my main worry about a T&RC.

[Piratis]

OK, so does this mean that you are willing to accept the A-Plan's clause that GCs forego their right to sue Turkey in the ECHR for deprivation of their property for the last 30 years? I would think that you are not...?

If Turkey totally stops the violations of our rights now, I am ready to forgive the last 30 years and I would personally be willing to accept such clause.

However, as I said already:

At the same time of course, nobody can stop individual citizens to bring to courts others that have harmed them in the past.

So if the aunt of Erolz knows the killers of her husband, if she wants she can bring those people to justice. The same case with GCs.

[erolz]

I think there would be a problem in establishing the truth when people that perpertrated crimes are still alive. How can we stop vendettas and people taking the law into their own hands? This is my main worry about a T&RC.

If we can not stop vigilantism and vendettas we are imo in trouble, with or without a T&RC. It seems to me a strage and depressing argument to say we should not seek and establish the truth because people might break the law if we do.