Cyprus-Forum.com

[brother]

I think a lot of it stems from what happened in the past and leaves the tc worried that if they were a minority the gc would effectively make their lives a living misery.

[insan]

Insan,

I still don't understand how you wish a demorcacy to work if you do not acknoledge that there is a physical Greek Cypriot majority, and therefore should have a proportionate say in the running of their lives. Now everywhere else in the free world this is a perfectly acceptable concept.

Our discussion under this thread is not related with what you said. You are missing the whole point. I said majority of GCs and Greeks living in other countries including Greece lobbying and struggling for basically for the following aims(cause)

A solution based upon;

1- Majority rule. A GC state with a TC minority.
2- Withdrawal of Turkish troops and nullification of 60s agreements.
3- Repatriation of all settlers.
4- Return of all refugees.

There are some Greeks and GCs who deny that majority of Greeks and GCs living in other countries lobby, struggle for such a cause. Everone is free to lobby and struggle for whatever he/she wants; including TCs. But why do some Greeks and GCs on this forum exert hard to twist the facts and conceal the truths.

Why should the voice of 18% of the population be louder then 78%. There is no way this can be justified, and constitutes to nothing more then a Dictatorship.

There is nothing steaky about wanted true democracy

Yes with a flat logic that's how it seems to you. All TCs want is dictatorship. (Clap! Clap! Clap!)

[Saint Jimmy]

A solution based upon;

1- Majority rule. A GC state with a TC minority.
2- Withdrawal of Turkish troops and nullification of 60s agreements.
3- Repatriation of all settlers.
4- Return of all refugees.

There are some Greeks and GCs who deny that majority of Greeks and GCs living in other countries lobby, struggle for such a cause. Everone is free to lobby and struggle for whatever he/she wants; including TCs. But why do some Greeks and GCs on this forum exert hard to twist the facts and conceal the truths.

Insan,
perhaps the Greeks and GCs you are referring to are not trying to conceal the truths, but simply not seeing things the way you do. I mean, of the four headings you've listed here, even I feel that two and a half of them are not absurd demands.
Thus, perhaps they are not trying to cheat you or anyone, but only seeing the issues you view as a Greek conspiracy as self-evident. Repatriation of all settlers, return of all refugees and withdrawal of turkish troops are hardly unacceptable or irrational demands. If a magic formula could be found to accommodate these issues, would they constitute red lines for the Turkish or TC side?

[insan]

Jimmy how many times I have to repeat what is acceptable and what is not for TCs and Turkish side? I don't want to repeat them 1000s of times.

Magikthrill gave me an example to show me how GCs living in Greece treated by Greeks in order to convince me that most of them hate with each other. This is not the truth.

The truth is that Greeks and GCs have always had common interests, common policies and common struggles. Far right cooperated with far right, right wing cooperated with right wing. Even recently we can see left wing is cooperating with right-wing for the sake of their national cause. There's no problem for me. As I said everyone is free to establish any type of alliances and struggle for what he/she believes in.


Everything is obvious. There's no need for twisting the words I said into something irrelevant.

[erolz]

Insan,

I still don't understand how you wish a demorcacy to work if you do not acknoledge that there is a physical Greek Cypriot majority, and therefore should have a proportionate say in the running of their lives. Now everywhere else in the free world this is a perfectly acceptable concept.

In every federation within the world there is a concept of both one person one vote AND one component state one vote (regardless of the respective size of the componenet states). This is true in federal states and within union of states (like the EU and UN).

Why should the voice of 18% of the population be louder then 78%. There is no way this can be justified, and constitutes to nothing more then a Dictatorship.

No one is saying the TC voice should be louder than the GC. What we are saying is that in some areas the TC voice should be EQUAL to the GC voice (and not in other areas).

There is nothing steaky about wanted true democracy.

Will you also then be 'lobbying' for 'true democracy' in insitutions like the Eu and the UN where in many areas the RoC has an equal voice with states massively larger than the RoC population wise? Or is 'true democracy' an ideal that only applies within a state but not in unions of states. Or perhpas it is an ideal that only applies when in favour of GC and to be denied and ignore when not?

[boulio]

Will you also then be 'lobbying' for 'true democracy' in insitutions like the Eu and the UN where in many areas the RoC has an equal voice with states massively larger than the RoC population wise? Or is 'true democracy' an ideal that only applies within a state but not in unions of states. Or perhpas it is an ideal that only applies when in favour of GC and to be denied and ignore when not?

thats not completly true however erolz,theres areas that the roc is one for one with bigger countries however there are areas that there not ie.monies granted does the roc receive the same amount of money than poland,does roc have the same amount of reps in parliment that spain?

you said that the t/c want a equal voice in certain areas of concern as the roc and in certain areas no,which ones then?

[erolz]

thats not completly true however erolz,theres areas that the roc is one for one with bigger countries however there are areas that there not ie.monies granted does the roc receive the same amount of money than poland,does roc have the same amount of reps in parliment that spain?

Can you please try and lear to use the quote system?

Anyway I made it clear that both one person one vote and one state one vote apply in the EU (and actually a combination of these in some instances). However even in the 'one person one vote areas' - like the EU parliament the RoC has much greater representation than the larger states. Compared with the UK each person in RoC has about7-8 times the representation of a UK citizen. Basically you average about 1 EMP per 100,000 of population and the UK averages one EMP per 800,000 of population. So even in the 'one person one vote' areas the RoC has disproprtionate (to population) representation. In many areas it is a straight one state one vote. It feels like GC 'ideals' of democracy are very incosistent. One set of rules when they are a numerical majority and another set when they are not.

As far as monies paid into the EU by states and monies paid out by EU to states each country is either a net looser of moneies or a net gainer. In terms of our argument which was about political representation and 'true democracy' this is irrelevant. The basis for this calculation is based on average income per head of population - thus the 'richer countries' pay in more than they take out and the 'poorer' countries take out more than they pay in. I believe the RoC does quite 'poorly' under this system because they have a small number of extremely waelthy citizens that brings up the average wealth per citizen. I think the RoC is a net looser as far as monies paid in vs monies paid out goes (though EU entry was never about economics for the RoC imo).

you said that the t/c want a equal voice in certain areas of concern as the roc and in certain areas no,which ones then?

My principal for this is cleary stated and I have stated it many many times here in the past. Basically for those decisions that affect each community differently they should require seperate acceptance from each community. For those that affect the two communites equally there is no need for seperate majorites in each community.

[boulio]

i think the one state on vote has in the last few years been watered down to include a very limited amount of things.

[erolz]

i think the one state on vote has in the last few years been watered down to include a very limited amount of things.

There really is no point in discussing anything with you.

You claim that 'true democracy' requires one person one vote and that any political representation disproprtion to population numbers in undemocratic. Yet when the fact that the EU gives disproprtionate to population political representation in ALL levels of the EU to the RoC (both those based on one person one vote and those based on one state one vote) vs the larger states and you are asked to condem the EU as being undemocratic and not a 'true democracy' (as you insist TC accept is the case with any disproportionate representation in Cyprus) - the best you can come up with to defend this apparent contradiction is the above?

The RoC has disproprtionate to population political representation at ALL levels in the EU (and much more disproportionate than that of TC/GC political equality in Cypurus would ential) - be that on issues of one state one vote or on issue of 'one person one vote'. This is a FACT. Yet you still maintain the political equality of component states in Cyprus is not 'true democracy' whilst refusing to accept that on the same terms the EU is also not a 'true democracy'.

So what about the UN - is that a democratic entity? The RoC has and equall voice as say Indonesia or India - with populations vastly in excess of the population of the RoC. Not a ['true democracy'. Will you be 'lobbying' for a change in the UN to give 'true democracy' and a 'one person one vote' basis for political represntation there? Some how I doubt it.

[-mikkie2-]

The Cypriots in other counrties support the 3 R's as they are called.

Return of Refugees
Return of Settlers
Return of Turkish forces

Those are the three key things that Cypriots lobby for. Anything else is just pure conspiracy theories as circulating in the mind of Insan and which he extensively propagates through this forum.

Insan, you can repeat your views 1000's of times but it makes not 1 bit of difference. You cannot persuade me or any other GC that your 'theories' hold water. What it boils down to is that you wish to ignore the concerns of your GC compatriots in order to further the cause of TC's. You want to 'win' and you wish us to 'loose'. That is how it comes across. In any case, these things will come out in the wash during the next round of negotiations and then we shall genuinely see who is right and who is wrong.