Cyprus-Forum.com

[Alexandros Lordos]

Otherwise I would say, lift the economic isolations so that TC side can start improving themselves, and after that we can have open talks with no time limit, without a third party if you guys want till we agree on everything.

Turkcyp,

I fully concur with this line of thinking. I think that to have proper negotiations the climate between the two sides must be improved, and also each side must be negotiating from a position of relative security. Otherwise, fear and mistrust will distort and ruin the process.

A good way to "start" negotiations, is to first reach an agreement for a trade-off between Famagusta and Direct Trade. The TCs relinquish Varosha to GC control, while the GCs authorise direct trade between the north and the European Union. This will create the appropriate climate to begin in-depth negotiations without a sense of "having to hurry and finish it in a couple of months", and in a spirit of (relative) good will.

I also fully agree with everything else that you wrote in your post.

[turkcyp]

deleted by the author...

[Alexandros Lordos]

Alexandros how many words constitute short one line sentences and how many do I have to use to warrant a merit mark for being constructive?? and what words do I have to avoid so as not to put out poisonious posts.
This is getting all to restrictive, cant I just post what I think, surely we should be allowed freedom of speach on here???

My friend, I didn't mean to restrict you, all I was doing was pointing out a rule which the admin himself has placed ...

I think a good rule for all of us is to be mindful when something we might say might insult the other contributors, through being interpreted as a personal and unwarranted attack, and also to fully explain our thinking so that others can understand why we are saying what we are saying.

I am sorry, I didn't mean to play "forum policeman", I've done my own share of insulting posts as everybody here knows, and friends like Insan and Erol have always been quick to correct me. That's what friends are for ...

Have a very good evening

[Alexandros Lordos]

This is what I do not never understand?

What makes Denktas leader of Turkish Community? Just the fact that he was president all these years?

Also where does it say that that Turkish people would appoint president to negotiate on their behalf. May be they will appoint Talat even if he is not chosen to be the president.

Well, this is not our decision, it's the TCs who have decided that the position of negotiator goes with the office of President. Your assembly certainly could change that, and in fact Talat would have changed it two years ago if he and Akinci had managed to get a parliamentary majority. Serdar, of course, wouldn't have it ...

Talat would be crazy to change this now, being so close to the presidency and to a clear unhindered mandate to negotiate ...

[turkcyp]

deleted by the author...

[MicAtCyp]

Interesting Bananiot! So, it's been 25 years you ‘ve been with your wife and you hardly touched the surface, but Ziartides who was just a Union leader (of the union that for many years was even considered illegal and allien to democracy-correct me if I am wrong) and met Papadopoulos lets say 10 times got to know him inside out!

According to the post of Insan he "took action" at the masacres. How exactly he took action? Did he participate? What was his action, do you have any proof?

He is also supposed to be a Turk hater because he spoke at the UN saying our purpose is to achieve Enosis. How come? Is there any GC politician back then that was not saying the same? If I were to classify them I would say they considered the TCs their obstacle (and thus enemies) to their Enosis dream.That's quite different than feeling pathological hate for someone.

He was alledged to be the writter of Akritas plan together with Clerides and Yiorkatzis. This has not been verified but lets suppose it is true. How come Clerides is a quty for the TCs whereas Papadopoulos is a scam. I really don't get it.
Besides what is there in the Akritas plan that made it such an extraordinary plan? Yes it was political maneuvering plan designing the road for Enosis. Is that so strange for that period? Does anyone deny those were our objectives? Even the part of it that refers to violence just says "a one or two day exhibition of our power". For me this is much less violence than what actually occured at various dates, and certainly a drop in the ocean compared to the 1974 Invasion.

It is obvious to me that Ziartides has a personal opinion which is just that. A PERSONAL OPINION!! Similar to yours...

PS. Like Alex said I am waiting to judge Papadopoulos in a couple of months.Patience!

[MicAtCyp]

Excellent post Alexandre, with square line of thinking, I enjoyed every line of it.( I am referring to the first one since I see there followed quite many in just a few hours)
There was another friend in here a while ago called "Othellos", I don't know if you came across with him, I am sure you two would become very good friends. He had a similar square line of thinking I liked very much.

I think the main problem so far is the instistence to "improve" the Anan Plan. In my opinion the Anan Plan is not improvable. Whatever changes we ask in our favour will have to be counterbalanced with changes of the other side, so we will end up to the same denominator.

I don't blame the TCs for this. I totally blame our side for sticking to a BBF= bizonal-bicommunal Federation(?) for almost 30 years simply to aquire political benefits over the intrangidence of Denktash. This system had a totally different application when it was accepted by Makarios in 1977 than what it has today. It's time we say it clearly. We DON'T want such a system because it pre-assumes lessening of our very human rights on top of all other concessions we make whereas it requires no concession from the other side other than some return of what the 1974 Invasion gave them (from what was ours on the first place).

But how can we say it, when we are still against the wall for the "offspring" of this system i.e the Anan plan? The cost will be tremendous. Can we add it to the existing one? No!

In my opinion our side will try to negotiate a new solution that presumably will be a BBF, but at the same time stick to the EU aquis. On the other hand the TC side will start screaming they want things contrary to the EU aquis because otherwise the BBF cannot apply.From there on there are are two options:a)Either the TC side will accept -in which case we will have a solution just called BBF but not be so in reality, or b)Papadopoulos will kill the BBF on that very moment and accuse the other side for insisting on "fascism". or c) The TC side will propose return to 1960 constitution plus autonomy (the best option according to me) or d) start returning land fast to later have grounds for partition.

**********************

PS. I just noticed Alex you suggested complete free trade including direct flights from Tymbou/Ercan (!!!) on exchange of Famagusta for creating a good climate for talks.

Sorry but I don't agree with that. It is like exchanging whatever the TCs want (trade and recognition) for a very small part of what we want. Be sure the TCs will talk very relaxed then, but I am not sure we will be equally relaxed. Careful Alex don't throw all your aces at once...

[Bananiot]

"Interesting Bananiot! So, it's been 25 years you ‘ve been with your wife and you hardly touched the surface, but Ziartides who was just a Union leader (of the union that for many years was even considered illegal and allien to democracy-correct me if I am wrong) and met Papadopoulos lets say 10 times got to know him inside out! "

I said scratched the surface ... but your sense of humour is captivating! Beware of people without humour, they do not get duller than this.

Ziarides, if you want to discard your blind folds and learn something, was like a spiritual father to Papadopoulos and this came out of Papadopoulos's mouth at the funeral of Ziartides. Papadopoulos was shuttered and he gave an ipromptu obituary saying among other things that he learned a lot from Ziartides. But of course you know better, he only met Papadopoulos 10 times! Peo was never illegal and during the moderate leadership of Ziartides it was a much respected institution, but of course you know better.

What keeps amazing me is your government spokesman stance and when it comes from a person that on another occasion he even published exerpts from the Akritas plan, I can only think that here we have a Dr Jenkyl and Mr Hyde situation.

[Kifeas]

Mr Bananiot,
Are you aware that the founder of your banana republic, Mr Glavkos Klerides, was also a co-signer of the Akritas plan? Was he a Turks hater too? What is the point you are trying to make in this forum?
People at some stage of their life can be one thing and later, as they become more mature and knowledgeable, they become another. If you think of this country as a banana republic, you should grasp your banana republic leader and come to Kissonerga, where there are a lot of banana plantations, to set your headquarters in one of them.

[Bananiot]

Excellent! Square logic! Because Klerides was a founder, so you claim, of the Akritas organisation, its ok for Papadopoulos to be its vice leader. I happen to beleive that all people ivolved in despicable acts, in both communities, shouldn't hold public offices. This is what happens in real democracies and if a murderer matures and becomes wiser he should still be punished. Punishment is not an end in itself but a detterent for would be criminals. Of course, these simple and universal principles may not have reached Paphos yet, so I can sympathise with you.