Cyprus-Forum.com

[zan]

Just to help you guys out, (GS) with the propaganda you are forced to swallow daily.

You should be aware that the ECHR is about to accept the Property Commission ruling that a GC can exchange land in the north with land in the south, despite your 'property guardian' thinking wrongly that it is only them who can determine the fate of TC land in the south.

So good news for the Property Commission, bring on the other 1400 cases will be what the ECHR will now say, so if you have any outstanding land issues you should contact the Property Commission, I am sure they would be glad to hear from you.

As I have been saying 2008 is going to be a good year for the TRNC. It looks like the party will be starting earlier than even I had expected.

Shall we arrange a party for all the members to attend to celebrate this monumental decision?



POLITIS

- Turkey is called to present a property exchange mechanism to the European Court of Human Rights by Jan.14, in connection with pending case of a Greek Cypriot refugee seeking compensation for land in northern Cyprus.

SIMERINI

- European Court of Human Rights rejects intervention of government which attempted to avert a friendly settlement between a Greek Cypriot refugee and Turkey over property he owns in north Cyprus.

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssIndu ... 6120080108

Paaul, do you know this man?


He is your twin brother!

WE ARE RAISING THE TRNC FLAG IN BRUSSELS AS WE SPEAK!!

Both you and Kifeas stuck on a word and not the issue...hands shaking are they

[zan]

Growing concern over implications of ECHR decision
By Jean Christou
CONCERNS yesterday resurfaced about the implications of a pending European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) decision on a land swap between a Greek Cypriot refugee and a Turkish Cypriot.

The case re-entered the spotlight after reports that the ECHR was proceeding with the case with Turkey, and had rejected the intervention of the Cyprus government.

At the heart of the matter are two major concerns, one of which is whether the ECHR will accept the deal, made through the controversial property commission in the north, as an adequate domestic remedy.
This could result in thousands of Greek Cypriot refugees applying to the ECHR being told to resort to the property commission for a solution.
Mike Tymvios, the Greek Cypriot refugee who land-swapped with the Turkish Cypriot, already had an application with the ECHR when he applied to the property commission.

The second issue concerns the status of the government’s Guardian of Turkish Cypriot Property, the only authority allowed to return land to a Turkish Cypriot, and only if the applicant has been residing in the free areas for six months or more.

If the ECHR gives the green light to the land swap, not only does it give legitimacy to the property commission, but it also puts the Guardianship on the spot because the Greek Cypriot refugee would be claiming Turkish Cypriot land in Larnaca, which would not have been legally returned by the Guardianship.

According to yesterday’s reports, the ECHR sent a letter to Turkey on December 3 asking it to clarify the mechanism it plans to apply to the “friendly settlement”. Ankara has until January 14 to respond on how it can concretely implement the land swap to ensure Tymvios is granted his rights.

Turkey has reportedly already responded, saying once the two landowners had agreed, there should be no legal impediment to the deal being completed.

The attempts by the government to intervene in the process were rejected, President Tassos Papadopoulos confirmed yesterday.

“The Court said that the dispute was between Mike Tymvios and Turkey and that the Republic of Cyprus was not involved,” he said. This was the right of the ECHR, he added.

However, he said that in extraordinary cases, if the Court deemed that a more general issue was affected, it might accept interventions by governments which were not involved in the case.
In the Tymvios case, this would centre on the future of the Guardianship.

Cyprus had argued that approval of the land swap by the ECHR could lead to the collapse of the current legal framework that governs Turkish Cypriot properties in the south.

The development has now led to calls to change the legislation governing the Guardianship so that loopholes can be closed.
Papadopoulos said if this was deemed the right course of action by the Attorney-general, then it would be done.

But some argue that the government should have made such a move a long time ago.

Former Attorney-general Alecos Markides, who has previously warned that the Tymvios case, would place Cyprus on a collision course with the Council of Europe, said yesterday that delay in changing the legislation regarding the Guardianship could lead to unfavourable developments for the government.

“The authorities need to be concerned and give some thought to the law governing the Guardianship and to modernise it,” he said.

“If we continue with the current attitude, there will be unfavourable circumstances. The law has a lot of loopholes and cannot stand at the European Court of Human Rights.”

Achilleas Demetriades, the lawyer for numerous refugees at the ECHR, said the Tymvios case was one example of the way the issue of Turkish Cypriot property issues had been mismanaged.

He said the government could have expropriated the Tymvios land in the north and compensated him, in which case there would never have been a land swap.
“Or the Parliament could have done something, but neither one nor the other did it,” he said.

But Government Spokesman Vassilis Palmas said yesterday that even if the Tymvios case was settled in Turkey’s favour, it did not necessarily create a precedent for the cases of other Greek Cypriot refugee cases at the ECHR. Palmas said each case was examined individually by the European Court.

Indeed, Papadopoulos, referring to the Court’s decision to admit 36 more cases for hearings, said yesterday this meant the Turkish Cypriot property commission had not been accepted as a means to resolve the cases in question.

IT WAS mounting debt that forced Mike Tymvios to resort to the property commission in the north. Tymvios wrote to the government over four years ago expressing his frustration at owning £25 million worth of land in the north, yet being unable to secure a loan to pay his family’s debts.

The government in its reply told him there was nothing it could do.
On September 22, 2003, Tymvios sent a two-page letter to the President, the Attorney-general and the Finance Minister questioning why he could not obtain the £1.5 million loan he needed to pay off old family debts.

Tymvios said it was “laughable that the courts and the government believed the property to be worthless” as far a securing a loan was concerned, and accused them of being “useless and unreliable”.

He asked help in securing a loan or compensation based on the value of his property.

However, in a letter sent ten days later, then Presidential Undersecretary Christodoulos Pashiardis, now the Defence Minister, said nothing could be done for him.

“The government and Parliament for many years now decided that it’s not correct or realistic to give out compensation,” said the letter.

To hand out compensation would be to “concede actual loss of property”, which it couldn’t do “because of illegal occupation”.

“If we were to discuss the loss of property we would have to discuss every loss,” the letter said.

Pashiardis told Tymvios that the old debts of refugees had been frozen since 1974, which meant his debts must postdate the invasion. Because of this. it was beyond the government’s power to help, the letter said. It concluded that the government could only offer moral support.

Dozens of other Greek Cypriot refugees who found themselves in dire financial need have also made applications to the property commission. Some have been told they will be compensated for their property in the north by the Turkish side. Tymvios was the only land swap case that has come to light.

Copyright © Cyprus Mail 2007



Tpap not only holding us to ransom but the GC refugees as well.....

[phoenix]

Isn't it all just so much simpler, ethically correct and justifiable, for the Bloody Turks to just go back to Turkey, and let the poor people they have ethnically cleansed from their homes so violently a few years ago, to return to their rightful abodes.

That would end the torture, the name calling, the blaming, the holding to ransom of TCs and GCs by Turkey etc.

. . . . and then everything will be hunky dory and the Lawyers can find something else to do.

[zan]

Isn't it all just so much simpler, ethically correct and justifiable, for the Bloody Turks to just go back to Turkey, and let the poor people they have ethnically cleansed from their homes so violently a few years ago, to return to their rightful abodes.

That would end the torture, the name calling, the blaming, the holding to ransom of TCs and GCs by Turkey etc.

. . . . and then everything will be hunky dory and the Lawyers can find something else to do.

The home office will be as busy as hell preparing exit visas and the estate agents will be also....But that will be what you want anyway...What was that you said....We don't need exit visas anymore.....

[CopperLine]

Kifeas, like some others on this forum (Piratis, for example) seem to have an unshakeable belief in the magical political powers of the use or non-use of scare quotes. It is nothing short of incredible how much power they seem to think there is in the difference between TRNC and 'TRNC'.

In the real world where most of us live, the ECHR is dealing with the administration of property matters in Cyprus (not Turkey); a property commission has been set up in northern Cyprus (not Turkey); the effective administration of that commission is TRNC or if you want 'TRNC', who cares what you call it, it is doing or not doing the job.

In the end though Turkey is the respondent state in the ECHR property cases. It is, practically speaking, the TRNC/'TRNC' which has every incentive to comply with ECHR judgments and make the property commission to work. Turkey has also got reasons to ensure the adequacy of the local remedy, but has far fewer incentives than does TRNC.

And what's your objection, Kifeas ? Is it that actually you don't want the property commission to fulfil its purpose ? You don't want GCs to exercise their human rights and for those rights to be fulfilled by the property commission mechanism ? Sounds like there is a possible mechanism for resolving dispute, albeit in a piecemeal manner, and your best shot is to come up with a trivial criticism. Yawn.

[DT.]

Kifeas, like some others on this forum (Piratis, for example) seem to have an unshakeable belief in the magical political powers of the use or non-use of scare quotes. It is nothing short of incredible how much power they seem to think there is in the difference between TRNC and 'TRNC'.

In the real world where most of us live, the ECHR is dealing with the administration of property matters in Cyprus (not Turkey); a property commission has been set up in northern Cyprus (not Turkey); the effective administration of that commission is TRNC or if you want 'TRNC', who cares what you call it, it is doing or not doing the job.

In the end though Turkey is the respondent state in the ECHR property cases. It is, practically speaking, the TRNC/'TRNC' which has every incentive to comply with ECHR judgments and make the property commission to work. Turkey has also got reasons to ensure the adequacy of the local remedy, but has far fewer incentives than does TRNC.

And what's your objection, Kifeas ? Is it that actually you don't want the property commission to fulfil its purpose ? You don't want GCs to exercise their human rights and for those rights to be fulfilled by the property commission mechanism ? Sounds like there is a possible mechanism for resolving dispute, albeit in a piecemeal manner, and your best shot is to come up with a trivial criticism. Yawn.

the occupied part of Cyprus which has been judged to be under Turkey's FULL control according to the ECHR rulings has set up a property commission in admittion to their crimes of stealing homes and land from people they've made into refugees. If Turkey sees fit now due to PR and window dressing and the long lost possibility that through this commission the puppet state will be closer to recognition then so be it.

Lets be clear here. The entire island of Cyprus belongs to the Republic of Cyprus established in 1960 and a full EU member. This will never be reversed unless agreed to by a GC President through his/her signature in a bad solution.

All other attempts of recognising a puppet state no matter how indirect and cunning they are will fial. Sure you will be vistied every now and then by a Turkophile Euro MP who's been given GC land in exchange but that will never change a thing.

[zan]

Kifeas, like some others on this forum (Piratis, for example) seem to have an unshakeable belief in the magical political powers of the use or non-use of scare quotes. It is nothing short of incredible how much power they seem to think there is in the difference between TRNC and 'TRNC'.

In the real world where most of us live, the ECHR is dealing with the administration of property matters in Cyprus (not Turkey); a property commission has been set up in northern Cyprus (not Turkey); the effective administration of that commission is TRNC or if you want 'TRNC', who cares what you call it, it is doing or not doing the job.

In the end though Turkey is the respondent state in the ECHR property cases. It is, practically speaking, the TRNC/'TRNC' which has every incentive to comply with ECHR judgments and make the property commission to work. Turkey has also got reasons to ensure the adequacy of the local remedy, but has far fewer incentives than does TRNC.

And what's your objection, Kifeas ? Is it that actually you don't want the property commission to fulfil its purpose ? You don't want GCs to exercise their human rights and for those rights to be fulfilled by the property commission mechanism ? Sounds like there is a possible mechanism for resolving dispute, albeit in a piecemeal manner, and your best shot is to come up with a trivial criticism. Yawn.

the occupied part of Cyprus which has been judged to be under Turkey's FULL control according to the ECHR rulings has set up a property commission in admittion to their crimes of stealing homes and land from people they've made into refugees. If Turkey sees fit now due to PR and window dressing and the long lost possibility that through this commission the puppet state will be closer to recognition then so be it.

Lets be clear here. The entire island of Cyprus belongs to the Republic of Cyprus established in 1960 and a full EU member. This will never be reversed unless agreed to by a GC President through his/her signature in a bad solution.

All other attempts of recognising a puppet state no matter how indirect and cunning they are will fial. Sure you will be vistied every now and then by a Turkophile Euro MP who's been given GC land in exchange but that will never change a thing.

And flights will come full of tourists and boats will moor along our shores and buildings will be built and products sold and life will go on.

[Nikitas]

Copperline,

There are no sanctions the CoE can impose on TRNC in case of non compliance because it is not a member of the CoE. Turkey is the one bearing the responsibility of fulfilling obligations and meeting judgements. The TRNC maybe the de facto administrator but Turkey is the one responsible to the ECHR and thus weakens the TRNC quest for official statehood every time the two are treated as one and the same. The more people resort to the properties board the weaker the TRNC becomes, it would seem to me and others. This makes the jubilation in the north over the acceptance of the properties board a little peculiar.

[phoenix]

Kifeas, like some others on this forum (Piratis, for example) seem to have an unshakeable belief in the magical political powers of the use or non-use of scare quotes. It is nothing short of incredible how much power they seem to think there is in the difference between TRNC and 'TRNC'.

In the real world where most of us live, the ECHR is dealing with the administration of property matters in Cyprus (not Turkey); a property commission has been set up in northern Cyprus (not Turkey); the effective administration of that commission is TRNC or if you want 'TRNC', who cares what you call it, it is doing or not doing the job.

In the end though Turkey is the respondent state in the ECHR property cases. It is, practically speaking, the TRNC/'TRNC' which has every incentive to comply with ECHR judgments and make the property commission to work. Turkey has also got reasons to ensure the adequacy of the local remedy, but has far fewer incentives than does TRNC.

And what's your objection, Kifeas ? Is it that actually you don't want the property commission to fulfil its purpose ? You don't want GCs to exercise their human rights and for those rights to be fulfilled by the property commission mechanism ? Sounds like there is a possible mechanism for resolving dispute, albeit in a piecemeal manner, and your best shot is to come up with a trivial criticism. Yawn.

the occupied part of Cyprus which has been judged to be under Turkey's FULL control according to the ECHR rulings has set up a property commission in admittion to their crimes of stealing homes and land from people they've made into refugees. If Turkey sees fit now due to PR and window dressing and the long lost possibility that through this commission the puppet state will be closer to recognition then so be it.

Lets be clear here. The entire island of Cyprus belongs to the Republic of Cyprus established in 1960 and a full EU member. This will never be reversed unless agreed to by a GC President through his/her signature in a bad solution.

All other attempts of recognising a puppet state no matter how indirect and cunning they are will fial. Sure you will be vistied every now and then by a Turkophile Euro MP who's been given GC land in exchange but that will never change a thing.

And flights will come full of tourists and boats will moor along our shores and buildings will be built and products sold and life will go on.

. . . and convicted prisoners live in their cells, and have visitors visit them, and eat their meals, and the prison is repaired and maintained etc and their life goes on.

What a pathetic way to live

[Jerry]

Look this Immovable Property Commission is a big joke and the ECHR will be damaging its reputation if it accepts it, someone somewhere has put pressure on the Court to accept this useless setup.

At the end of June 2007 I phoned the TRNC office in London and asked them how I could get compensation. On 7th July I received a reply that included a poorly photocopied form headed "Acquisition of Immovable Property by Non-TRNC Citizens". On 9th July I e-mailed them back saying I wanted the commission's address in Cyprus I did not want to buy property. I received a reply giving me the Nicosia address dated 13th May (how is this possible). I wrote to the commission on 13th July asking how I would go about claiming compensation. The reply I received was dated 5th September, here it is in full :-

There are different options for applicants under the provision of our Law that form a system of redress. The system includes restitution, exchange and compensation.
I attach the sample application form to my letter. Sample application form is written in three languages(Turkish, English and Greek). But you have to prepare it in Turkish language.
You can apply yourself or by lawyer or someone else who is taken power of attorney from you, your brother and your sister.
If you want more information please contact us via electronic mail. ([email protected])

With best regards;

Nahide Akyuzlu

Secretary of the Commission

The above is an exact copy, warts and all.

So what did the sample form say? I don't know, is the answer, it was not attached!

Why, when most applicants are Greek speaking should they have to apply in Turkish, it sounds a bit bloody -minded to me. English at least would be a more accessible language and a fair compromise.

My advice is, ask the commission for an application form, if and when you ever get it complain to the ECHR about the delay and the fact that you have to apply in Turkish. Show the system up for what it is, a farce!

The commission does not have a website and is not easy to find, probably because they know they can't handle too many applications, so here it is:- Ataturk Meydani, Mahkemeler Karsisi, Posta Yani, Lefkosa, Mersin 10 Turkey.

To the best of my knowledge you are not obliged to accept what the commission offers and you don't get compensation for loss of use so then you go to the ECHR.

Personally, I won't be applying.