Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

[utu]

The settlers are brought to the "TRNC" for one reason and one reason only, whether peace or no peace, partition or no partition, reconciliation or no reconciliation. They are there to take away the voice (vote) of the TC's and place it in the hands of the Turks. Either the Turks will use their majority voice to vote the way they want to vote to bring about a settlement that gives them the best chance to get into the EU, or worse case scenario, Turks will be the rulers over the TC's in the North, if Turkey does not get into the EU. If the latter one happens, in some years in the future, there will be memorial walking paths and trails named after the the TC's who once lived on the island of Cyprus, much like the Trails we have for the
Kickapoo (Kikapoo, Kikapu) Indian tribes in the Southwestern USA, who have mostly long vanished from the face of the Earth due to the arrival of the Settlers from Europe, and now only a few thousand are remaining.

If this is indeed true, then the T/C diapora better get back to Cyprus. Their birthright is being eroded.

[zan]

To Copperline and Zan regarding their comments above.

A policy of colonisation is evident on the ground. Bringing people over and settling them in GC properties is one such piece of evidence. Another is the political organization of settlers and their active part in TRNC politics. Do not take my word for it, read statements and articles by concerned TC politicians who know the situation better than any of us in this forum.

In any future solution when the populations will be concentrated in one side of the island there is a real risk of a race problem between TCs and mainland Turks, as well as problems between the mainlanders themselves. There is no need to import these problems in Cyprus.

Those who advocate the legalisation of settlers are not communicating with the Cypriot in themeselves. Just imagine how you would feel dealing with the Federal buraucracy if the employee you are talking to is not a Cypriot but a mainland Greek or mainland Turk. Does that make you feel as a citizen of an independent and free nation? And how about seeing nationals of both mainlands being eligible for elected office and perhaps elected.

Those who say the above examples do not bother them are either not Cypriots or they have reached a level of cosmopolitan thinking which obviously escapes me.

Assuming I am alive and in possession of my faculties when a solution comes about, and that solution grants any kind of privilieges to settlers of any nationality over and above what Cypriots get, I will go to court for it. My demand will be equal treatment with settlers and I do believe I will win my case. There is an element of anti Cypriot discrimination in provisions made for settlers and I am surprised that Cypriots of any community cannot see it.

This is like the Enoch Powel speech about the streets of blood made by another xenophobe. This fear of a multi cultural society that exists in many countries all over the world. The plus with the TRNC is that both have Turkish roots so the problem is much less than anywhere else. The solution is that they are all made Turkish Cypriots. You seem to want to freeze us in time when there isn't a nation in the world that is the same as it was twenty years ago. You guys do make me laugh when you contradict yourselves over and over again. You offer us a home as a minority in a Greek Cyprus and then tell us horror stories about living as Turks. You yourself said that no people will vote for something that will make them worse off and now we are to fight against what will not happen. Sure there are those in the TRNC that do not like change and I don't blame them. They have been living in a time capsule since 1963 forced on them by Makarios and his henchmen but they will get used to it as they did he siege. Things are moving now and people will have to adapt...It sure is much better than it was and will be better still once the embargoes are lifted.

Kikapu, we have done what we had to do in order to survive the siege and that is the end of the story. Now a ready and sustainable population is needed for our continued success and we will do what is necessary again. Your thick head will not listen to what is going on around the world as far as sustaining a country for the long term is concerned and whether it is just short sightedness, nostalgia or plain propaganda on your part it is just as annoying. Do you think that the "RoC" is the same place as it was twenty years ago. My sister crossed over last year and said she could not wait to get back because she thought she left Harringey behind in the UK. Not that I care what goes on there but the quite sleepy villages with donkey drawn carts are no more my friend...Long live the future.

[BC Numismatics]

Zan,there's only one Cyprus - one that is neither Greek nor Turkish,but Cypriot!

Aidan.

[CopperLine]

Nikitas,

...and that solution grants any kind of privilieges to settlers of any nationality over and above what Cypriots get, I will go to court for it. My demand will be equal treatment with settlers ...

And assuming I'm still alive, I'll support you in that. I am not arguing for any privileged status for any one. I am simply saying that all people in Cyprus should be treated on the basis of free and equal citizenship. I do not believe that the sins of the fathers should be repeated by or paid for by the sins of the children, in perpetuity.

I also think that umit07 is broadly correct : a siginificant number of Turkish citizens who have come to TRNC have done so for reasons of work from otherwise impoverished regions. A significant number are the low wage workers. What is for sure is that these guys are not rolling in gold, they are not living off illegally gotten properties, and they are struggling to put bread on the table from insecure work, unsafe working conditions (eg construction industry), and unscrupulous employers. Easy targets for further hatred and deportation I grant you, but hardly the driving force of Turkish colonisation.

[zan]

Zan,there's only one Cyprus - one that is neither Greek nor Turkish,but Cypriot!

Aidan.

Only in our dreams so far....

[humanist]

Zan

Only in our dreams so far....

am with you on this one

[Kikapu]

Kikapu You give the example of issuing a driving licence as a test of the 'stateness' of a country. I'm not sure driving licences are good examples regarding recognition of a state and a distinct jurisdiction, so let's take something fundamental like marriage certificates or birth certificates. For those who say because TRNC is not recognised as a country/state then its jurisdiction including law-setting powers which includes citizenship tests are also not recognised, they are mistaken. If you got married in TRNC or had a baby born in TRNC then those certificates issued by the ostensibly unrecognised TRNC are STILL RECOGNISED by other jurisdictions and other states.

CopperLine,

My use of the Drivers Licence point was to illustrate, that having a fake drivers licence created by me is not going to work when there is already a legal driving licence system in operation. The "TRNC" may want to act like my fake driving licence, but will not be recognised by other authorities, hence the fact that the "TRNC" is not recognised as a country by the World, because it is a "fake drivers licence". By you using the marriage and birth certificates in the "TRNC" being recognised by others is hardly relevant. No body denies that TC's live or exists in the "TRNC". I have used a birth certificate issued by the "TRNC" when I applied for my US citizenship many years ago, even though I was not born in the "TRNC", but rather in Cyprus, so that is not the point. Adjustments are made to minimize certain problems to the TC's that are politically based, so not to hinder their day to day life. Same time, two astronauts could have gotten married on the moon, or the space station or on a cruise ship in the middle of the ocean, and their marriage would still count in the eyes of the world, despite all those events taking place in NO country at all, recognised or not. It is not intended to deny individual TC's anything by the world, but rather denying a "state" within a State that is acting illegally in the formation of that "state" and then try claiming to be or wanting to be legal, by asking the International community to recognise them. So, individuals are recognised as TC's even if they live in a illegal state, but the illegal state is not recognised as a country.

[Kikapu]

Kikapu, we have done what we had to do in order to survive the siege and that is the end of the story. Now a ready and sustainable population is needed for our continued success and we will do what is necessary again. Your thick head will not listen to what is going on around the world as far as sustaining a country for the long term is concerned and whether it is just short sightedness, nostalgia or plain propaganda on your part it is just as annoying. Do you think that the "RoC" is the same place as it was twenty years ago. My sister crossed over last year and said she could not wait to get back because she thought she left Haringey behind in the UK. Not that I care what goes on there but the quite sleepy villages with donkey drawn carts are no more my friend...Long live the future.

Zan,

We survived for over 400 years in Cyprus as a minority, so what makes you think we could not do so now as Turkish Cypriots without having to "flood our ethnicity" with another that is close to ours. This tells me that you have no intentions of remaining as a TC but rather TC+Turk in a separate country away from Cyprus called the "TRNC". Well Zan, please do not pretend that flooding of our unique TC's culture with the culture of Turkey was at our request. It was not. Once again we were told what to do by those who can, making us believe that they are there for our own good and for our own survival....Hardly. We have now put into motion with the flooding by Turks into our unique TC culture on course for our extinction. What the "Greeks" and the British could not have done in the past 400+ years, will be done in a very short time by the Turks, and you want to believe that they have done so for our survival. Only Turkey's entry into the EU will change course now, if the "Greeks" wanted to help us survive as a TC community that is, or they may just watch from a distance and see us disappear into the sunset by denying Turkey access to the West by leaving them in Asia, along with the "TRNC". 2004 changed everything Zan. It is time for you to face some facts.

There's only ONE Haringey and only ONE Green Lanes in the world, and that is in North London. I did not see any "Haringey's" in the RoC last year. As for my nostalgia for the reminiscence of the old days with donkey and carts being long gone, it is true for the most part. Yes, it is true that the carts have gone, but the Donkeys remained, but have evolved from walking on four legs to walking upright on two legs now. They still however, make the same noise.!!!

[zan]

Kikapu You give the example of issuing a driving licence as a test of the 'stateness' of a country. I'm not sure driving licences are good examples regarding recognition of a state and a distinct jurisdiction, so let's take something fundamental like marriage certificates or birth certificates. For those who say because TRNC is not recognised as a country/state then its jurisdiction including law-setting powers which includes citizenship tests are also not recognised, they are mistaken. If you got married in TRNC or had a baby born in TRNC then those certificates issued by the ostensibly unrecognised TRNC are STILL RECOGNISED by other jurisdictions and other states.

CopperLine,

My use of the Drivers Licence point was to illustrate, that having a fake drivers licence created by me is not going to work when there is already a legal driving licence system in operation. The "TRNC" may want to act like my fake driving licence, [color=red]but will not be recognised by other authorities,[/color] hence the fact that the "TRNC" is not recognised as a country by the World, because it is a "fake drivers licence". By you using the marriage and birth certificates in the "TRNC" being recognised by others is hardly relevant. No body denies that TC's live or exists in the "TRNC". I have used a birth certificate issued by the "TRNC" when I applied for my US citizenship many years ago, even though I was not born in the "TRNC", but rather in Cyprus, so that is not the point. Adjustments are made to minimize certain problems to the TC's that are politically based, so not to hinder their day to day life. Same time, two astronauts could have gotten married on the moon, or the space station or on a cruise ship in the middle of the ocean, and their marriage would still count in the eyes of the world, despite all those events taking place in NO country at all, recognised or not. It is not intended to deny individual TC's anything by the world, but rather denying a "state" within a State that is acting illegally in the formation of that "state" and then try claiming to be or wanting to be legal, by asking the International community to recognise them. So, individuals are recognised as TC's even if they live in a illegal state, but the illegal state is not recognised as a country.

Stop banging your against the wall again Kiks.....It WILL come....

Reconsidering the Bases?
By Andreas Avgousti
(archive article - Friday, January 25, 2008)
MUCH ADO about nothing seems to be the conclusion one can draw from President Tassos Papadopoulos’ claim that the government has told Great Britain that his government is reconsidering the status of the Sovereign Base Areas (SBA).

The issue has been looming under the surface of political discourse ever since Britain signed a strategic partnership with Turkey on October 23.

The agreement focused on Turkey's bid to join the European Union as well as joint co-operation against terrorism, but crucially referred to the occupied areas as the ‘Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus’ (TRNC).

According to the government, this constitutes implicit recognition of the TRNC by Britain.

“The strategic agreement was a negative development,” Papadopoulos said earlier this week.

“We have notified the British that the whole gamut of issues regarding the bases, their status, the status of Cypriot citizens [living on the bases] and the treaties are, for us, under reconsideration.”

He made the comments when replying to questions regarding the problems for the funding of businesses within the SBA areas.

The President said that there was a problem with the introduction of the euro in the Bases, since the UK has not entered the eurozone, adding that efforts for the acquis communautaire to apply to the Bases were continuing.

A British High Commission spokesman in Nicosia had no immediate comment to make on whether the government had contacted them about the issue.

However, he did tell the Mail that, “Our line is that we remain confident about the legal status of the SBA.”

Spokesman for the SBA Dennis Barnes was in full agreement, adding that, “Any wider discussion should be held with the High Commission and not with us.”

“We would not expect the government to contact us about political and/or legal matters.”

The Greek Cypriot press yesterday offered little in the way of evidence for moves made by the Papadopoulos government, which would excuse the so-called “reconsideration”.

In an article, Alithia wrote that, “the government has never raised the SBA issue either by contacting the British High Commissioner or through the Cyprus High Commission in London, or indeed via the Foreign Ministry or at high level meetings.”
In its editorial, Simerini also pointed out that, “beyond the general proclamations made on the issue, little is to be found which confirms the government’s stated intentions” to reconsider the SBA status.

Ever since they were first instituted as part of the 1960 London-Zurich founding agreements, the SBA have been source of disaffection for the Cypriots.

Britain is Cyprus’ largest trading partner and accounts for the most tourists to the island.

Copyright © Cyprus Mail 2008