Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Today turkey is not occupying an EU country yet. After May 1st it will.

When I say that they will never be a full member this is just what I believe will happen, not necessarily what I want or what will benefit Cyprus.

I believe this is not news for Turkey. They know that they will never be a full member. What they want is to start the pre-accession procedures so that EU will help Turkey financially.
Have a look here, especially points 2 and 3:
http://www.mfa.gov.tr/grupa/ad/adc/TREU ... 050203.htm

Maybe we will not veto for Turkey getting the “date”, but later on we can block or reduce this financial aid if we want. Greece has done this before. And we are talking about billions here.

So Turkey will have a big motive to solve the Cyprus problem. Either Turkey likes it or not we will be in a more powerful position after May 1st. This is why they were threatening us even with another invasion some months ago. Now that they failed to stop us they did everything possible to close the Cyprus problem before May 1st.

My enthusiasm for the EU accession has more to do with security. We are in a cease fire situation with a country of 70 million that maintains 40.000 troops on our island. After May 1st we can feel more secure, and this is why we are celebrating.

[Piratis]

While I was reading this article today:
http://www.eubusiness.com/afp/040411032555.7hbxbsde
I saw a link at the bottom about Turkey. Have a look at it. It is not made by Greek Cypriots or Greeks, and it doesn't have any special gravity, but it can give you an idea of how some EU citizens feel about Turkey entering the EU.
http://www.petitiononline.com/euro2/

[rengarenk]

I don't know what kind of experience you had but you are wrong about the "majority" part.

Start by looking at your school textbooks and official government propoganda, it all started in '74 did n't it? Granted until the problem is solved you cant expect either side to be objective, TC textbooks are no better. The fact that both sides have presidents who where involved with terrorist groups says alot does n't? of course who's a "terrrorist" and who's a "freedom fighter" is again objective..

I could accept what you said if Turkey came, restored the order and then left. Even us would celebrate that day and be grateful if such thing happened.

What do you mean by "order"? There was no constitutional order before the coup from 1963. So do you mean the order just before the coup or the 1960 constitutional order which GC claimed was "unworkable" and an "imposition". Even now you are not happy with the 1960 provisions and in every negotiation since 1974 you've tried to get rid of them.

But what happened was a full scale invasion, killing of innocent people, missing people and 200.000 refugees.

Out of curiosity let me ask you firstly if you consider soldiers from Greece in that period as an invasion force?

Like I said before I do believe the GC paid a heavy price, but in terms of the killing of innocent people, missing people and refugees we have suffered in equal amounts and more as a proportion of our population. Now it's all very well talking about injustice for these people but there was no justice if you was TC between 63-74 and only after you our own suffering it became important.

After 30 years Turkish army still occupies Cyprus and there is no excuse for that.

Of course there is an excuse, the Cyprus problem is n't solved, unless you think that there is nothing to solve and the only problem is there presence. If the army was n't there the only negotiation to take place would be the acceptance of the 1963 changes by the TC side.

We have the Annan plan that will result in 650 soldiers remaining, the number in the Treaty of Guarentee and that that could n't do anything to protect the TC side between 63-74.

So yes, the same way you say that we should ask for forgiveness, you should ask too.

Do you think if Cyprus had been annexed with no Turkish intervention and the TC became another muslim minority in Greece you would be asking for forgiveness as much?

You are both instigator and victim but as the instigators you do realize that you wont get everything you want in a final settlement dont you?

if G/C can visit the occupied areas with 40.000 Turkish troops and they are not scared, why T/C should be scared living in a Federal state with us that will secure all their rights? Are G/C so much more brave than T/C? I don't think so. I think you are just using this "fear" as an excuse.

As an individual of course there is no fear and for the majority of TC people in villages even during 63-74 there was no fear of your GC neighbour. However on a community level there is a fear and it is a fear based political and economic dominance of the other community and I can assure it is quite real and no "excuse" as you see it.

You do realize do you not you that individual rights give no guarentee that one community will not dominate the another?

In your vision of a federal state the GC community controls both states via their numerical majority. For the TC side, that is worse then the 1960 bi-communical unitry state model. Annan V is the 1960 model along the lines of a federation. Now of course GC will argue that 1960 is a "monstrosity" but for the TC side it is the baseline.

A good solution in Cyprus would benefit both sides, especially T/C. E.g. if less settlers stay this means more financial support and more benefits for the real T/C. A united Cyprus economy can potentially be very strong and benefit all of us.

I believe Annan V is a good solution, I know you dont agree and dont expect you to just because I do. The majority of settlers that will stay are the ones that have been here for 34 years and their children. I'm not about to send back people who have been here that long and especially not the 2nd generation who know no other life than that of one on Cyprus just so that I can improve my financial situation. The newer arrivals who came after wealth will go back and will be happy to go back with their 10,000 euros.

A quick question, are you looking to send back any of your "pontus" orgin citizens?

Turkey might get a "date" and we will not veto it. But thats the most Turkey will get. Europeans do not want Turkey in EU, so Turkey will never be a full member.

So what do you hope to gain? A better solution in the future? A worsening economic situation and all the TC to leave the island and permenant partition? I'd really like to know.

[Piratis]

Start by looking at your school textbooks and official government propoganda, it all started in '74 did n't it? Granted until the problem is solved you cant expect either side to be objective, TC textbooks are no better. The fact that both sides have presidents who where involved with terrorist groups says alot does n't? of course who's a "terrrorist" and who's a "freedom fighter" is again objective..

Yes, maybe text books are not objective, and while you can say that they cultivate hate for Turks, they don't do the same for Turkish Cypriots. I guess that your text books are much worst in this respect.
In the RC we had several presidents. They are all terrorists according to you? Its not like Denctash that has been you leader forever.

It seems that I keep answer the same questions.
Your whole arguments is that T/C and G/C have to live as separate as possible, and I don't agree. For details check on my other posts.

I will just answer some things I didn't write before that you asked.

Out of curiosity let me ask you firstly if you consider soldiers from Greece in that period as an invasion force?

Those soldiers where send here by the military that was ruling Greece at that time. They came here to kill our president. Many G/C where killed by them also. Every year we condemn this action. On the other hand, you celebrate the invasion!!

Do you think if Cyprus had been annexed with no Turkish intervention and the TC became another muslim minority in Greece you would be asking for forgiveness as much?

I am asking for forgiveness for any kind of murders or any other violations of the T/C rights by G/C and I would ask it anyways. That said, G/C are the great majority of this place, so if they wanted to join Greece their desire should have been respected by anybody that respects democracy.

You are both instigator and victim but as the instigators you do realize that you wont get everything you want in a final settlement dont you?

Everything we want? What do you mean "want"? The perfect solution? That would be what France or Greece has. We are not even talking about the ideal here! Do you really think that for a minority of 18% to get its own Federal state with 25% of the ground is something ideal? If it was ideal every country that had minorities would split up into federal states.

What we are asking is not the ideal solution for us. Is a compromise that actually will benefit more T/C than us, but at least it will not harm us like the Annan plan does.
If we were maximalists like your leader, the way he shouts that he wants two separate countries, we would should that we want a unitary system similar to the one they have in other countries. So don't confuse our very logical proposals, with what would be ideal for us.

A quick question, are you looking to send back any of your "pontus" orgin citizens?

If you ask Greek Cypriots the 90% of them will tell you that they would prefer if all pontians leave from Cyprus today, and this answer is irrelevant to the Cyprus problem. While some of them are ok, most of them create problems all the time. Why would G/C want them?
If you ask for this in a future plan you will make a big favor!

[rengarenk]

Yes, maybe text books are not objective, and while you can say that they cultivate hate for Turks, they don't do the same for Turkish Cypriots.

You know my mother still has her identity card from the Makarios period and in one section it indicates she is a Turk. I know there are a number of people on both sides who rather the just Cypriots instead of TC or GC but that the end of the day part of our identity is Greek or Turkish along with our Cypriotness. Now I cant say I have a great love for the people of Turkey or that the TC are the same as them but when you cultivate hatred for Turks it is also towards part of my identity.

In the RC we had several presidents. They are all terrorists according to you? Its not like Denctash that has been you leader forever.

I did meant it in that way, I said "our presidents" in the current context. Was n't Papadopoulos part of EOKA and Akritas? Was n't he in favour of union with Greece? Of course we all know about Denktas and TMT.

These two men are definitely people of 60's and 70's.

Your whole arguments is that T/C and G/C have to live as separate as possible, and I don't agree.

No my argument is that after the events of 63-74 for the TC side it is hard to trust you so we want to be protected as a community and not just to have individual rights. You are of course free to think this is unreasonable but I dont and it seems neither does the UN or EU.

I would be more than happy for there to be a referendum every 10 years to review the state of affairs. Once we have trust we could have something better. Would that be reasonable to you or do you think that it is in the TC nature to be divisional forever and if so why?

Those soldiers where send here by the military that was ruling Greece at that time. They came here to kill our president. Many G/C where killed by them also. Every year we condemn this action. On the other hand, you celebrate the invasion!!

As far as I know those soldiers did n't suddenly arrive to kill the president, they only became a problem once your leadership started disagreeing with each other and with the military leadership in Greece.

Like I said previously, it's easy to condemn failures and losses and talk about things in hindsight. For example, you now have a new national day on the GC side where you condemn the "great catastrophe of 1922" on the Turks, even though it was the result of a failed Greek invasion.

Yes there are celebrations of the army comming, I hope you can see that at the time and for most people alive who experienced those days it meant the end of 11 years of hell. Like I said previously I ackowledge it was the begining for a nightmare for the GC side but I still can not understand how you can not see it from the TC point of view.

Besides, I personally cant see the point of any of these celebrations as they dont achieve anything constructive.

I am asking for forgiveness for any kind of murders or any other violations of the T/C rights by G/C and I would ask it anyways.

I can only assume you are genuine and for that I commend you. I can also say that even though I was n't alive in '74 I do know stories of GC in other villages being killed simply because someone in a village did n't like them and for that I can be only say sorry and condem the people who carried out such actions and the army for sanctioning it. It's my wish that individuals responsible will one day some how pay for their deeds on both sides.

That said, G/C are the great majority of this place, so if they wanted to join Greece their desire should have been respected by anybody that respects democracy.

Even if it is illegal in the same way that the TRNC is illegal? You can argue that the 1960 consitution was imposed on you, but was n't Makarios welcomed back as a hero after he signed it?

Everything we want? What do you mean "want"? The perfect solution? That would be what France or Greece has. We are not even talking about the ideal here! Do you really think that for a minority of 18% to get its own Federal state with 25% of the ground is something ideal? If it was ideal every country that had minorities would split up into federal states.

Yes but this particular "minority" went through the 63-74 period. You do realize that the situation we have now is mainly due to your leaderships miscalculations dont you? You can deride the TC side for not fighting against the army but after 11 years of excluding them in order to achieve enosis who would expect them to fight against against Turkey in the name of the ROC?

I dont know where this 25% figure comes from, but if you go by the 29% in the Annan plan and then allow for the 1/3 of the TC state being GC with the restrictions then that is around 19%. 1% is hardly something for us to be victorious about.

Even with the Annan plan how many of the 50000 TC do you think are going to go back and live in the GC state even though they are free to?

What we are asking is not the ideal solution for us. Is a compromise that actually will benefit more T/C than us, but at least it will not harm us like the Annan plan does.
If we were maximalists like your leader, the way he shouts that he wants two separate countries, we would should that we want a unitary system similar to the one they have in other countries. So don't confuse our very logical proposals, with what would be ideal for us.

Can you please point me to an offical site with these logical proposals from your government?

As far as I know, what the side GC offically demands are the removal of the army and settlers, the return of all displaced peoples (even though the majority of TC villages are inhabitable and all the best TC areas have been developed for tourism) and the set up of a federation with proportional representation and individual rights protected.

Now since the GC would be the majority in both federal states and the GC would control both what would be the point of a federation? Both states would pass exactly the same laws and would be a mirror image of each other so you'd be a de-facto unity state. In fact it would n't be very logical at all since you would have a duplication that would be a waste of time, money and people.

Besides you know that the TC would never accept this as it would be less than the 1960 provisions but you knew I was going to say that did n't you?

If you ask Greek Cypriots the 90% of them will tell you that they would prefer if all pontians leave from Cyprus today, and this answer is irrelevant to the Cyprus problem. While some of them are ok, most of them create problems all the time. Why would G/C want them?
If you ask for this in a future plan you will make a big favor!

So your leadership is n't much different to ours when it comes to bringing in people we dont want.

[metecyp]

Now since the GC would be the majority in both federal states and the GC would control both what would be the point of a federation?

Now, let me guess Piratis' reply "But come on, in democracies majority rules, but I guess you don't know what a democracy is, since you never lived in one. You should be happy for a federation for mere 18% minority..."

So your leadership is n't much different to ours when it comes to bringing in people we dont want.

Cyprus wouldn't be in such a miserable condition if both sides didn't act so stupid in the last 40 years. The reason why we're still in this condition is because we have a lot of people on both sides who insist on not seeing the point of the other side, who only care about their own welfare, and who are used to division.

[Piratis]

but when you cultivate hatred for Turks it is also towards part of my identity.

Maybe, but the occupation is there today, not just part of the history that we could remove from books. So unfortunately it couldn’t be done any other way.

Once we have trust we could have something better. Would that be reasonable to you or do you think that it is in the TC nature to be divisional forever and if so why?

Its not a matter of T/C here. I wouldn’t even trust most of my relatives with something like that. Human nature is such that when somebody gains something he/she will never want to give it back.

Yes but this particular "minority" went through the 63-74 period.

Many groups of people in most countries went through bad periods, including Greek Cypriots.
Take blacks in the US, or women in most countries around the world. Fighting to get what you deserve is noble, trying to gain on the back of others is not. The final objective should be human rights for everybody.

I dont know where this 25% figure comes from, but if you go by the 29% in the Annan plan and then allow for the 1/3 of the TC state being GC with the restrictions then that is around 19%. 1% is hardly something for us to be victorious about.

Even with the Annan plan how many of the 50000 TC do you think are going to go back and live in the GC state even though they are free to?

The 25% comes from a proposal I made some threads ago, but not many bothered with it.
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=170

Now I don’t know why you have to do all those maths. According to Annan plan, the G/C that will return will not even be able to vote there. Also, you should do the same math for our site (100 - 29 for T/C – British Bases – Marinotites, Latins, Armenians – T/C that will come here – T/C already living here) Where is our 78% +1% like it is in your case?

Now since the GC would be the majority in both federal states and the GC would control both what would be the point of a federation? Both states would pass exactly the same laws and would be a mirror image of each other so you'd be a de-facto unity state. In fact it would n't be very logical at all since you would have a duplication that would be a waste of time, money and people.

Nobody said all these things. Go and read the plan that I gave at the link above. What do you find there that is not logical?

So your leadership is n't much different to ours when it comes to bringing in people we dont want.

Pontian Greeks are not 100.000, they are a very small number compared to Turkish Settlers. But yes, I really don’t know why they did this, and while as I said many of them are very good people, there are many others that create a ton of problems and we would like them to leave.

[tcypriot]

how can we forgive you if you are still saying that we are %78 we can do whatever we want!!! No the fact that your population is more than ours does not mean that you can do whatever you want and make our country cyprus a municipality of a foreign country.If you are thinking in such a pathetic way than you should realise that Turkey has 100 times more population than you have and 7 times more than greece so in this region whatever turkey says will be done.If turkey wants to annex greece or cyprus to turkey, its turkey's right...

You cant say that europe has more population than turkey or things like that because no european will die for cyprus.

just give up this idea that you are %78 and you can do what you want and everything will get better afterwards.Or else you'll always live uncomfortably both because of increasing tension that awaits cyprus and because of the 1million turkish immigrants that come to TRNC....

PS. I think you are improving yourself.If you give up this majority complex everythinh will be better..

[Piratis]

Who said that we will do whatever we want?
Who said about making Cyprus a municipality of a foreign country?
All we said is democracy (open some books to understand what that means) and human rights. All these in a federal system where you will have your state within which you will have a lot of autonomy.

Turkey has 100 times more population than you have and 7 times more than greece so in this region whatever turkey says will be done.If turkey wants to annex greece or cyprus to turkey, its turkey's right...

You cant say that europe has more population than turkey or things like that because no european will die for cyprus.

just give up this idea that you are %78 and you can do what you want and everything will get better afterwards.Or else you'll always live uncomfortably both because of increasing tension that awaits cyprus and because of the 1million turkish immigrants that come to TRNC....

Are you threatening us now?
If Turkey could, they would. Turkey is a poor country that depends on Europe.
No tension awaits Cyprus. We've heard these threats before.
And what are your sources about the 1 million immigrants? I think you are just saying random things. And if this happened I believe Turkish Cypriots would be a lot more uncomfortable than us.

With threats and wars you gain nothing, not against an EU member.

What both Turks and Turkish Cypriots can benefit from is democracy and human rights. These, along with the correct policies, will bring prosperity to the average Turk and T/C.

Instead of threatening Greece and Greek Cypriots maybe you could learn something from us.

[rengarenk]

Maybe, but the occupation is there today, not just part of the history that we could remove from books. So unfortunately it couldn’t be done any other way.

I do not believe that this use of a technicality can an be an excuse and that it is detremental to the view of TCs by GCs and therefore directly affects the vital trust element.

From a young age you teach that the turks are the eternal enemy of the greeks (not just related to the cyprus problem), imply they are sub-human and that their arrival in 1974 was not the result of any of your own sides actions. You then say the TC who are also turks are your fellow compatriots and that you have no ill feeling towards them.

I know you will not agree with me here and most probably bring up the the lack of a fight against the turkish army by TC to imply that we are somehow responsible for them arriving. In your mind because the TC do not rebel against the turkish army we are simply an extension of it, is n't this true?

The TC preception is that this is just a continuation of the situation fermented in the 1960's where the turk element of the TC was very much in focus and the distinction between us and the turks of turkey was minimal if anything.

Take blacks in the US, or women in most countries around the world. Fighting to get what you deserve is noble, trying to gain on the back of others is not.

The black and women example you give is one where people want the rights that they dont/did n't have legally. The TC side simply wanted/wants the implementation of the rights that your side had agreed to earlier. What you are implying is that because the GC don't think the TC deserved the rights they themselves agreed to, that non-implementation is okay and that any TC attempt against this is not a noble cause.

The final objective should be human rights for everybody.

Do you seriously believe that from 60-63 the human rights of GCs were curtailed? During 63-74 human rights ment nothing to your side, only when you suffered human rights violations did they suddenly become important.

Its not a matter of T/C here. I wouldn’t even trust most of my relatives with something like that. Human nature is such that when somebody gains something he/she will never want to give it back.

I would have hoped you would have used something better then the "relatives/blood tie" argument here. You imply again that in "Human nature" since the TC will gain more then they deserve and as such there could be no give-and-take in the future since the TC side would have taken everything.

I have previously stated that from the TC point of view I see the Annan plan as being the essense of 1960 along federal lines. In the plan you have federal, state and local government and on top of that the senate. The senate is for example there to safeguard one community dominating the other although in reality the means GC over the TC.

I can see there is argument here that this is non-optimal in terms of state machinary but for the TC side considering our last experience with the GC in terms of government these safeguard are neccesary.

What I said was with regards to the referedums say every 10 years was that for example in the future the senate never blocks any legislation and that the state governments reach equilibrium in their laws and taxs. In such a situation you could hold a referendum to remove the senate, disolve the state parliments and move thier authority to the federal government with the rest going to local government. The "federal" government would the no longer be federal and you would infact have a unitry state.

Why would the in the future TC state agree to this? In this scenario the security concerns of the TC will no longer be of concern because trust would have been established and that for both GC and TC states the removal of one layer of government would mean lots of money would be saved resulting in either lower taxs (good) or better public services (also good).

The 25% comes from a proposal I made some threads ago, but not many bothered with it.

Sorry I thought this kind of offical policy of the GC side.

Now I don’t know why you have to do all those maths.

The reason I did the maths was that you are throwing around that 25% as we are getting something more than we deserve so I deconstructed it. In your last post in that thread you say 40% of GC should come back, so in reality that 25% figure is in reality 15% for TC and 10% for GC.

Interestingly if we do the 28.6% figure from the Annan plan and apply the 33% for GC you get 19% for TC and the same 10% for GC.

I mentioned the 1% because you make out that the TC side are getting land much greater area than their population in the Annan plan but like I said 1% is hardly a massive land grab. Now if you look at your proposal it looks like we are getting +7% and that we should be greatful for your generousity but in reality it is -3%. Also the british bases come out of the total island area and just from the GC side.

Even if the TC had 20% this is a figure that Makarios presented to Denktas in their negotiations.

Interesting alot of your thoughts in your plan run very close to the Annan plan, especially with the FBI style police which is also in the plan.

According to Annan plan, the G/C that will return will not even be able to vote there

You are seriously wrong here I hope this is not the message comming out from your political leadership, the GC under the TC state will have full rights to be representated at every level, that is local, state and federal (chamber of deputies) level and will be one man-one vote, the same applies to TC in the GC state. When voting for the Senates 48 seats (split 24-24) the GC and TC will vote throughout the island for either a GC or TC candidate respecting the political equality of the 1960 agreement. So in short no one is denied a vote.

Nobody said all these things. Go and read the plan that I gave at the link above. What do you find there that is not logical?

Again I was refering to what the your leadership has indicated, that is the removal of army and settlers, federation, individual rights and the three freedoms.

As I just mentioned major elements of what you propose is in the Annan V plan. Interestingly I have to point out there was a couple of occasions even during the 63-74 period that both the sides agreed on 99% but that 1% could n't be found.

Pontian Greeks are not 100.000, they are a very small number compared to Turkish Settlers.

From what I have read the number is 30,000. The actually number of settlers brought in are around 40,000 and you could say that 80% of that number came shortly after 1974. The rest is made up of their children, that is 2nd generation settlers or cypriots whichever your leaning maybe. If your pontians had the same birth rate as these 1st generation settlers youd have near 100,000 in 34 years too.