Cyprus-Forum.com

[Paphitis]

Just returned to check this topic and surprise surprise we have the usual nonsense from the GC posters, descending into farce and abuse, yet again. The Rumlar are saying once again, 'Remove your life-belt and everything will be allright !'

OMG you are back.

I thought you ran away to reinvent yourself because you lost your credibility and any future attempt to sound intelligent is extremely futile from this point onwards.

Just seeing things as they are Baf. I think I'll visit my father's house in Terra when I next go to Cyprus. Oh no, I can't as his house has been demolished !

'Remove your life jacket and everything will be allright'.

My wife say's the same thing. She wants to live in her house in Kythrea but then realises she can't because there is a fucking Turk living in it and there are 40,000 well armed occupiers preventing her from doing so.

Nice to know that there's a Turk having sex in your wife's former property !

Sorry mate. It is not a former property. We still own it and take pleasure in the fact that very soon we will be in Strasbourg sueing your fucking Turkish arses for compensation and still maintaining legitimitate ownership of the property as all compensation will be on account for "Loss of Enjoyment"

I will be seeing TURKIYE on the ECHR stand.

Paphitis, you're more than welcome to see Turkey in Strasbourg. Your original comment is racist in that you say, 'fucking Turk'. If your wife ever returns to her property at least she will have one to return to, unlike my folks. I'm sick & tired of your community always banging (sic) on about their property but being completely blinkered about TC properties. I saw a tv holiday programme a few months ago in which properties in a TC village in the south (Poli, I think it was) were occupied by British ex-pats and Greeks from Greece. It works both ways.

Even though I couldn't care less what you thought of the Annan Plan, just out of interest was your wife's property to be returned to the GC constituent state under that plan ? Or would she have been one of those GC's able to return under the rule of the TC constituent state ? If so then your problem is with your community for rejecting the re-unification of Cyprus. Were the upcoming round of negotiations to ever break down, then unfortunately it is highly unlikely that she will ever be able to live in her house ever again. This is unless of course the TRNC is recognised and applies to join the EU, for in such a situation there would be freedom of settlement.

By the way I apologise for causing any offence. I found your statement offensive but then responded in kind.

'Remove your life jacket and everything will be allright'.

Apology accepted. Since you have surprised me with your apology and admitted your insensitive and offensive comment, I will also send you my apologies for causing you some offence to my comments, even though they were made as a reaction to your hard line attitude. Sometimes I also take a hard line attitude so I guess I should not judge you too severely as it would be a bit hypocritical. Let me assure you that I do not have any racist inklings to Turks or TCs, but I do sometimes get very frustrated with Turkey and her continuation of the illegal occupation which is a trespass on my country. It is beyond me to understand why Turkey feels the need to continue these violations as it is already a very large country with enormous unrealised potential, whereas Cyprus is a mere speck on the map with a population of 800,000 or so. GCs are absolutely no security risk to TCs and merely want to get on with their lives in a unified country along with their TC counterparts. Life in the RoC is very different today, with relatively high standards of living. No GC is willing to jeopardise their prosperous futures and the future of their families.

Also, every GC and the RoC respects the legality of TC owned land. You will find that the RoC Land Registry will still have your family recorded as the legal owner of your lands as per your title deeds. You are also able and welcome to reclaim your land through the Land Registry. If you are unable to claim your land for any reason, then your family would be entitled to compensation. The same can not be said about the GC refugees. The GC refugees are prevented from claiming their properties because of the continued occupation. GCs are not indifferent to TC properties as you insinuate. Even as we speak, several TCs have permanent residency in the RoC with all their constitutional rights also reinstated and protected under the constitution.

My wife's property was not to be returned under the Annan Plan. But even if it was, our family would still oppose such a complex and discriminatory plan as a solution to the Cyprus Problem. We would have opposed it because basic democratic principles such as proportional representation and power, were not met under that failed plan. There were also security concerns such as the Treaty of Guarantee and the continued presence of Turkish troops. Our family is more willing to do without our property than to allow our family, friends and the people living in Cyprus to suffer the indignity of an Apartheid Plan with their political and democratic rights being short changed. Therefore I urge all Cypriots to never accept such discriminatory plans which will do nothing for their families but condemn them to perpetual suffering under an Apartheid system. I urge all Cypriot politicians to think about their children whilst negotiating with Talat for a solution, because Cyprus does not belong to them but to the future generations. Any Cypriot who does not do this and allows for the future generations to live under Apartheid rules with disproportional representation and power, is betraying their country, people and family. This will also lead to a pandora's box of constitutional mayhem, violence and bloodshed further down the track. As a result, such complex solutions are really no solution at all, and are far worse than the present status quo.

Personally, I do not have high hopes of anything coming out of the present negotiations. But I still firmly believe that one day all refugees will return to their roots and your statement to the contrary is considered as nothing more than a threat to my family and to Cypriots, to accept any plan thrown at them or else. Such antics will never succeed because Cypriots are way smarter than what you give them credit for and will never compromise or condemn their children and grand children to live as second class citizens in their own country under an Apartheid political structure.

Regards

[Muzzy70]

Just returned to check this topic and surprise surprise we have the usual nonsense from the GC posters, descending into farce and abuse, yet again. The Rumlar are saying once again, 'Remove your life-belt and everything will be allright !'

OMG you are back.

I thought you ran away to reinvent yourself because you lost your credibility and any future attempt to sound intelligent is extremely futile from this point onwards.

Just seeing things as they are Baf. I think I'll visit my father's house in Terra when I next go to Cyprus. Oh no, I can't as his house has been demolished !

'Remove your life jacket and everything will be allright'.

My wife say's the same thing. She wants to live in her house in Kythrea but then realises she can't because there is a fucking Turk living in it and there are 40,000 well armed occupiers preventing her from doing so.

Nice to know that there's a Turk having sex in your wife's former property !

Sorry mate. It is not a former property. We still own it and take pleasure in the fact that very soon we will be in Strasbourg sueing your fucking Turkish arses for compensation and still maintaining legitimitate ownership of the property as all compensation will be on account for "Loss of Enjoyment"

I will be seeing TURKIYE on the ECHR stand.

Paphitis, you're more than welcome to see Turkey in Strasbourg. Your original comment is racist in that you say, 'fucking Turk'. If your wife ever returns to her property at least she will have one to return to, unlike my folks. I'm sick & tired of your community always banging (sic) on about their property but being completely blinkered about TC properties. I saw a tv holiday programme a few months ago in which properties in a TC village in the south (Poli, I think it was) were occupied by British ex-pats and Greeks from Greece. It works both ways.

Even though I couldn't care less what you thought of the Annan Plan, just out of interest was your wife's property to be returned to the GC constituent state under that plan ? Or would she have been one of those GC's able to return under the rule of the TC constituent state ? If so then your problem is with your community for rejecting the re-unification of Cyprus. Were the upcoming round of negotiations to ever break down, then unfortunately it is highly unlikely that she will ever be able to live in her house ever again. This is unless of course the TRNC is recognised and applies to join the EU, for in such a situation there would be freedom of settlement.

By the way I apologise for causing any offence. I found your statement offensive but then responded in kind.

'Remove your life jacket and everything will be allright'.

Apology accepted. Since you have surprised me with your apology and admitted your insensitive and offensive comment, I will also send you my apologies for causing you some offence to my comments, even though they were made as a reaction to your hard line attitude. Sometimes I also take a hard line attitude so I guess I should not judge you too severely as it would be a bit hypocritical. Let me assure you that I do not have any racist inklings to Turks or TCs, but I do sometimes get very frustrated with Turkey and her continuation of the illegal occupation which is a trespass on my country. It is beyond me to understand why Turkey feels the need to continue these violations as it is already a very large country with enormous unrealised potential, whereas Cyprus is a mere speck on the map with a population of 800,000 or so. GCs are absolutely no security risk to TCs and merely want to get on with their lives in a unified country along with their TC counterparts. Life in the RoC is very different today, with relatively high standards of living. No GC is willing to jeopardise their prosperous futures and the future of their families.

Also, every GC and the RoC respects the legality of TC owned land. You will find that the RoC Land Registry will still have your family recorded as the legal owner of your lands as per your title deeds. You are also able and welcome to reclaim your land through the Land Registry. If you are unable to claim your land for any reason, then your family would be entitled to compensation. The same can not be said about the GC refugees. The GC refugees are prevented from claiming their properties because of the continued occupation. GCs are not indifferent to TC properties as you insinuate. Even as we speak, several TCs have permanent residency in the RoC with all their constitutional rights also reinstated and protected under the constitution.

My wife's property was not to be returned under the Annan Plan. But even if it was, our family would still oppose such a complex and discriminatory plan as a solution to the Cyprus Problem. We would have opposed it because basic democratic principles such as proportional representation and power, were not met under that failed plan. There were also security concerns such as the Treaty of Guarantee and the continued presence of Turkish troops. Our family is more willing to do without our property than to allow our family, friends and the people living in Cyprus to suffer the indignity of an Apartheid Plan with their political and democratic rights being short changed. Therefore I urge all Cypriots to never accept such discriminatory plans which will do nothing for their families but condemn them to perpetual suffering under an Apartheid system. I urge all Cypriot politicians to think about their children whilst negotiating with Talat for a solution, because Cyprus does not belong to them but to the future generations. Any Cypriot who does not do this and allows for the future generations to live under Apartheid rules with disproportional representation and power, is betraying their country, people and family. This will also lead to a pandora's box of constitutional mayhem, violence and bloodshed further down the track. As a result, such complex solutions are really no solution at all, and are far worse than the present status quo.

Personally, I do not have high hopes of anything coming out of the present negotiations. But I still firmly believe that one day all refugees will return to their roots and your statement to the contrary is considered as nothing more than a threat to my family and to Cypriots, to accept any plan thrown at them or else. Such antics will never succeed because Cypriots are way smarter than what you give them credit for and will never compromise or condemn their children and grand children to live as second class citizens in their own country under an Apartheid political structure.

Regards

Whoa, Paphitis, where do I start. As a TC I have legitimate security concerns and as a TC I do not consider the north to be under 'occupation.' This of course is a relative matter and one of perception. I am understandably fearful of the possible intentions of your community in the event of a settlement, given what happened to my community and family for that matter, pre-1974. I didn't like the Annan Plan but was prepared to accept a compromise formula, as that is what it was. Compromise, given the bitter experiences of both communities, is the name of the game now and we are seeing out an end game ! You see Paphitis, nearly everything you state reminds me of a unitary state where for me this increases the prospect of mistrust, violence etc, etc. You see Turkey as occupiers, I see her as protectors. Why do you think my dad was jumping for joy and crying with happiness when Turkey landed in 1974 ? I agree with you that Turkey should withdraw her troops both pre and post a settlement (as should Greece for that matter) but I insist on a 650 troop contingent as a symbolic gesture of security for the TC community. I also insist on political equality for our community as enshrined by the Cyprus constitution that you mention. Do you not accept that this is reasonable and agreeable ? If you have a problem with this then you completely fail to understand my legitimate concerns . I could never accept an EU or NATO force or whatever, including full demiliterisation as long as Turkey is not in the EU. Were she ever to join the EU then I'd possibly be ok about all troops leaving, provided that the new state was functioning and that we were all getting on ok ! It's my hunch that something along these lines will pan out.

But.......back to the topic, what legitimate right is there for Britain to remain in Cyprus ? None whatsoever.

[Rebel.Without.A.Pause]

Whoa, Paphitis, where do I start. As a TC I have legitimate security concerns and as a TC I do not consider the north to be under 'occupation.'

The rest of the world does...get with it.

This of course is a relative matter and one of perception. I am understandably fearful of the possible intentions of your community in the event of a settlement, given what happened to my community and family for that matter, pre-1974.

Firstly, id say over 90% of 'my community' were not involved in inter-communal fighting. Secondly, you have to ask your community why they would want to start the inter-communal fighting. Its a FACT that people from the Turkish Cypriot community cast the first stone between the two-communities, whether from the point of joining with the British colonial forces or the attack on innocent Greek Cypriots in Gunyeli in 1958. When are Turkish Cypriots going to make a sincere effort to educate themselves and stop playing the victim card??

I didn't like the Annan Plan but was prepared to accept a compromise formula, as that is what it was. Compromise, given the bitter experiences of both communities, is the name of the game now and we are seeing out an end game !

I think the Greek Cypriot community had to make more compromises and sacrifices than the Turkish Cypriot community and Turkish occupation forces - hence the 'no vote'. It's common sense - do you or do you not want to live in a modern democracy with equal status as you TC's like to go on about?

You see Paphitis, nearly everything you state reminds me of a unitary state where for me this increases the prospect of mistrust, violence etc, etc. You see Turkey as occupiers, I see her as protectors. Why do you think my dad was jumping for joy and crying with happiness when Turkey landed in 1974 ?

Do you REALLY think Turkey's intentions were to protect the Turkish Cypriot community or take part of Cyprus as a military base?? Your really kidding yourself here. Look at the facts - 40,000 military troops, the ethnic cleansing of the Cypriot majority in the north, the overwhelming change in demographics with Turkish settlers from Turkey. Turkey's done a better job at wiping out Turkish Cypriots from Cyprus than the Greek Cypriots ever did. Why would Turkey want to protect you from old people, women and childern who they murdered and raped??

Why dont you come to your senses???

...and i dont know, maybe your dad is a Turkish nationalist who belived in partition and having part of Cyprus as a Turkish colonwy which it is now.

I agree with you that Turkey should withdraw her troops both pre and post a settlement (as should Greece for that matter) but I insist on a 650 troop contingent as a symbolic gesture of security for the TC community. I also insist on political equality for our community as enshrined by the Cyprus constitution that you mention.

Do you mean going back to the 1960 constitution??

Do you not accept that this is reasonable and agreeable ? If you have a problem with this then you completely fail to understand my legitimate concerns . I could never accept an EU or NATO force or whatever, including full demiliterisation as long as Turkey is not in the EU. Were she ever to join the EU then I'd possibly be ok about all troops leaving, provided that the new state was functioning and that we were all getting on ok ! It's my hunch that something along these lines will pan out.

Do you not see Cypriot concerns of having Turkey as a guarantor after Turkey totally violated its last guarantor status?? I might accept the 650 troops you mentioned with a limited time for guarantorship - but how do we know history will not repeat itself and Turkish Cypriots will cause problems again to give Turkey an excuse to enter Cyprus once more?? Do you see our concerns?

But.......back to the topic, what legitimate right is there for Britain to remain in Cyprus ? None whatsoever.

I dont get this - if Britain has no right (which i agree with, then why should Turkey?? If Turkey was to be a guarantor, id be more comfortable with the British here believe it or not.

[Get Real!]

But.......back to the topic, what legitimate right is there for Britain to remain in Cyprus ? None whatsoever.

Unfortunately, Britain DOES have a legitimate right to occupy the bases because it was part of the London/Zurich agreements, but I cannot say the same for Turkey though which after losing in WWI, had officially signed away all claims to Cyprus in the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne.

[Paphitis]

But.......back to the topic, what legitimate right is there for Britain to remain in Cyprus ? None whatsoever.

Unfortunately, Britain DOES have a legitimate right to occupy the bases because it was part of the London/Zurich agreements, but I cannot say the same for Turkey though which after losing in WWI, had officially signed away all claims to Cyprus in the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne.

Yo Muzzyree,

For the record, I am more willing to have a Treaty of Guarantee from Britain which is a very stable nation. A Treaty of Guarantee from Turkey, one of the world's most unstable nations and a gross human rights violator, is an insult to western society and values.

[repulsewarrior]

Muzzy, thanks for this debate, it is interesting.

... i think that the British Bases are an anomally which can serve a higher purpose if the intelligence they gather there is for our security in an event where the region faces threats. If they are to remain, they must reflect a policy which allows for our cooperation with Turkey, England, and NATO, partners with Cyprus to effect this work.

Turkey's "guarantee" is spurious, its credibility is suspect, because it can be seen to be self-serving. Your fear of "Greek-Cypriots", may have validity, but for the same reasons, "Greek Cypriots" fear the overwhelming size of Turkey. Turkey may have a presence on the island that is welcome, even militarily, but it requires of Turkey a recognition of a Sovereign State, which as equals apply themselves to a common goal.

[Oracle]

Muzzy, thanks for this debate, it is interesting.

... i think that the British Bases are an anomally which can serve a higher purpose if the intelligence they gather there is for our security in an event where the region faces threats. If they are to remain, they must reflect a policy which allows for our cooperation with Turkey, England, and NATO, partners with Cyprus to effect this work.

Turkey's "guarantee" is spurious, its credibility is suspect, because it can be seen to be self-serving. Your fear of "Greek-Cypriots", may have validity, but for the same reasons, "Greek Cypriots" fear the overwhelming size of Turkey. Turkey may have a presence on the island that is welcome, even militarily, but it requires of Turkey a recognition of a Sovereign State, which as equals apply themselves to a common goal.

Sensible ....

[GAVCARoCOM]

why people write so long or all they do is paste and copy . i cant read all just passing

[Oracle]

why people write so long or all they do is paste and copy . i cant read all just passing

GAV ... they are deeper than you or I .. they feel better after posting, cathartic.

But GAV, dear .... please don't try it ...

[EPSILON]

Ok let's suggest that the future security arrangements of a settlement are on the following basis. Turkish and Greek troops remain on the island as per the 1959 London - Zurich Accords on a 650/950 ratio. Greek troops remain in the southern 'consituent' state and Turkish troops in the north. All troops, possibly, are to be withdrawn following Turkey's accession to the EU. Turkey acts as a guarantor state for the north and Greece for the south. There is thus no reason as to why Britain should remain a guarantor state in the event of a settlement. The ties of history (and I know this will annoy some people) and ethnicity of both Cypriot communities dictate that they have far more of a right to a Turkish and Greek security presence on the island than Britain ever does. The presence of 650 Turkish troops is a security measure, however symbolic, to allay the potential fears of the Turkish Cypriot community.

The British presence in Cyprus has nothing at all to do with internal security but strategy and as such the validity of the bases continuing to exist in a newly established Cypriot state ceases to exist, period. Both leaders should make it quite clear to the UK government that the bases should go in the event of a settlement. Does anybody know if this is being discussed by the technical committees ? Could someone also remind me what the provisions were for the future of the bases in the Annan Plan ?

A potential sticking point of a possible British withdrawal, for the Turkish Cypriot side, would be that the territory of the bases would be a part of the Greek Cypriot constituent state, thus providing such a state with more territory. This could be taken into account, understandably, by the Turkish Cypriots during negotiations about the eventual size of the northern constituent state. Could be problematic but again I can see a compromise formula here.

There is another proposal. (A potential sticking point of a possible British withdrawal, for the Turkish Cypriot side, would be that the territory of the bases would be a part of the Greek Cypriot constituent state, thus providing such a state with more territory. ) Cyprus became a free state with full demiocratic rights and system and majority decides that only Greek or, at leadt European army, to be the only guarantor of Island's safety.Minorities to have to comply.!!! Modern World, Modern democratic suggestion - providing "more territory"? more of what- ? more of what you had? more of what you are legally allowed?

Forget all above. you are right- you are absolutetly right. You are a Turk.therefore you must always have right- Attaturk said this.