Cyprus-Forum.com

[mehmet]

Do you change the subject when you can no longer make claim that you have perfect democracy? I don't continually post about perfect democracy, you do. But we can all see it's not so perfect can't we. So really, you shouldn't feel so superior when your media try so ensure your presidents arguements aren't disputed by people who were involved in negotiation.

Fact is Verheugen now is saying that EU was decieved by Papadopoulos and that he can't be trusted. No wonder you want that to stay quiet while he gets two hours to cry again in front of the cameras. Like you, he always wants to have the last word and your free society is going to give it to him.

Fact is he can't trust Turkey and if you trust him to make peace with Turkish Cypriots you will have a long wait.

[Piratis]

o you change the subject when you can no longer make claim that you have perfect democracy?

I answered to the subject very clearly. When a programme is canceled means that democracy is not perfect? You clearly have no clue of what you say since you are not here to see for yourself the huge amount of air time that the "yes" supporters get. I live here and I can say that you are simply reproducing lies and you can do this all day and all night if you want, go ahead.

I have no time to waste in stupid fights like this. Continue to accuse us like you did for 30 years and lets see what you are going to achieve. I tried several times to start a dialog to find our common points but you preferred not to follow that direction.

[metecyp]

I have no time to waste in stupid fights like this. Continue to accuse us like you did for 30 years and lets see what you are going to achieve. I tried several times to start a dialog to find our common points but you preferred not to follow that direction.

Are you sure about this? I mean you continually insist on your points, and after a while, I gave up. I tried to see your point of view, and I even questioned myself about my opinions. But now it's not me saying these things, Verheugen and hence the EU also started saying the same things that I told you a while you. Don't you think that it's a little bit odd when everybody says one thing, and you say something else? Do you also think that the whole world is working against you like some nationalists do in the north? Am I ever going to see you say "Yes, you're right, that was not right". I understand if you don't accept that the whole structure in the south is not democratic just because of Verheugen's denial from the TV channels. But at least admit that that was wrong, and admit that the media is biased towards "No" in the south and admit that this shouldn't have happenned in a democratic country.

[Piratis]

What "whole world" are you referring too? It is Turkey-US-UK that they have huge interests and they pressure some other, less interested, countries to support them. See what happened in Iraq for example. Can you say that the whole world approved what the US did there? No! Yet, many countries even send troops there because of US pressure.

About the democracy:
In the US, there are only 2 parties and the system is such that prohibits any others from having a voice. I was there too, and I saw how the US channels where biased in favor of Israel in the middle east conflict and not only. Take each other democracy one by one and compare them with Cyprus. We have one of the most Democratic states in the world!

[metecyp]

What "whole world" are you referring too?

I meant the Western world EU, US, and UK, especially EU.

Can you say that the whole world approved what the US did there? No! Yet, many countries even send troops there because of US pressure.

Yes, there was a strong opposition to what the US did in Iraq. But some countries sent troops only after the US finished its major operation in Iraq. Nobody became part of the invasion. They sent troops to contribute to the military police formed there and for the reconstruction and stabilization of Iraq. In other words, the damage was already done with the US, their troops were sent to fix that damage. It doesn't mean that they approved the US policy in Iraq all along.

The situation in Cyprus and Annan plan is completely different. You're indirectly claiming that US pressured EU to approve the plan? It doesn't sound right to me. I think EU has its own opinion on the plan and you wouldn't be so eager to join to a union that could so easily be influenced by the US.

I don't want to discuss democracy anymore. The last thing I'm going to say is that I would have called your side a true democrarcy if your side did not claim to represent TCs. But you can't claim to represent TCs while they're out of the decision process, that doesn't work in democracy.

[Piratis]

You're indirectly claiming that US pressured EU to approve the plan?

The EU simply doesn't need another problem within its borders. Also, the UK is one of the biggest countries there and the interests of UK in Cyprus are as much as the Turkish ones. The US and UK press the EU to accept Turkey ( i don't think you can disagree with this) and they don't want anybody (France etc) to be able to use Cyprus as an excuse for rejecting Turkey.

The Annan plan is very unclear and includes parts that can be interpreted in many ways. The status of the British Bases is the most clear thing in the whole plan.

I don't want to discuss democracy anymore. The last thing I'm going to say is that I would have called your side a true democracy if your side did not claim to represent TCs. But you can't claim to represent TCs while they're out of the decision process, that doesn't work in democracy.

We discussed this many times. Republic of Cyprus is what we have agreed. In the future we might agree on something else, but until then RC is what we have. We do not exclude you from RC, you excluded yourselves.

By the way, I don't know if you heard Papadopoulos yesterday, but he said that if the result of the referendum will be negative, then RC will make sure that T/C will receive all the benefits of the EU but without actions that could show recognition to "TRNC".

Do you know that 10.000 TC work in the south already? I am sure several thousands will use RC passports now. TC will be in the south by the thousands working and maybe even living here without any problems.
And then you can come during summer in the south, and you can sit and drink your coffee at a cafe in Limassol or Paphos, and you will tell your Greek Cypriot friends there that we need a solution that will keep us as separately as possible because of what happened 40 years ago. I think this is ironic.

We truly want a solution that will benefit Cypriots not one that will mainly benefit Turkey and its settlers.

[mehmet]

When Denktas praises Russia it is a rare thing.

In the last few days I have been reading about the intimidation of Turkish and Greek Cypriots by people against the Annan Plan. At last we have succeeded in uniting those whose aim is to perpetuate the current situation indefinitely.

When there is grafiti in a school saying 'A good Turk is a dead Turk' is it free speech or a problem for democracy?

When you have an ex Attorney General saying that the situation in the south is reminiscent of 1972-3 because of the atmosphere between the Greek Cypriot community it ought to concern those who wish for democracy. Events that have been reported recently will make some question whether a united island is worth it when it means having such people for neighbours once again. The indifference of the security forces in the South when people are being harrassed for supporting Annan Plan inspires no confidence of a brighter future.

[mehmet]

Also I don't need to have discussion about history when such things as I have posted about have happened in the last week. All I can say is that there are elements within Cyprus who have learnt all the wrong lessons of history and are acting just as their fatheres and grandfathers did. People need a different action if they want a different outcome.

[metecyp]

The Annan plan is very unclear and includes parts that can be interpreted in many ways. The status of the British Bases is the most clear thing in the whole plan.

I agree that we need to work together to get the British bases out of Cyprus. I think it's really unfair that we, as Cypriots, have no say in the British bases.

Do you know that 10.000 TC work in the south already? I am sure several thousands will use RC passports now. TC will be in the south by the thousands working and maybe even living here without any problems

Yes I know. I know some people that work in the south personally. And you know what kind of jobs they're working in? Mostly low-level jobs like construction workers. They showed a guy on TV last summer who has a university degree, and he works as a construction worker in the south. I also know many people that have RC passports. They mainly get it to be able to travel to Europe freely. But the point is, if you ask any of these people if they want to return back to RC, not many people will agree. They work in the south, because they don't have anything else in the north. They get RC passports because their TRNC passports are useless. It's not that they love to work in the south, or they love to get RC passports. But the question is do you really want a solution of this type? This solution you're referring to is to hope TC economy get worse and worse in the north, and finally most TCs work in the south, use hospitals in the south, and use RC documents, so they all accept RC in a sense with no added safeguards to ensure that TC economy will not be destroyed by strong GC economy and TC voices will be heard in important decisions.

And then you can come during summer in the south, and you can sit and drink your coffee at a cafe in Limassol or Paphos, and you will tell your Greek Cypriot friends there that we need a solution that will keep us as separately as possible because of what happened 40 years ago. I think this is ironic.

I did this last summer. I went to south Nicosia many times, Larnaca, Limassol. And I never had a bad experience whatsoever. Some GCs even approached me to talk to me, and asked me how I liked the south, and so on. I also met with GC friends of mine, and they showed me around as well. I'm not saying that ordinary people cannot live together, we can. But the point is there has to be some kind of seperation, at least at the beginning, to ensure that TC community is protected from GC dominance both in numbers and economy. I'm NOT asking seperation between ordinary people. I'm asking seperating at the governance level.

I guess this sums up my point: I don't want to be an individual in RC. I want to be represented as a community. So when important decisions are taken regarding to Cyprus, I'll have some say in them as a community because if I'm treated as just another citizen, GCs can take any decision they want (like recognizing "Asia Minor Genocide day" or something like that) and nobody will even listen to me as an individual.

[insan]