The Best Cyprus Community

Skip to content


The Sun - 8th August 1974

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby zan » Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:02 am

DT. wrote:
zan wrote:
miltiades wrote:
zan wrote:
miltiades wrote:
zan wrote:We shall see Deniz :lol:

My ideas have not changed one iota , they have been consistent all along.
The difference here is that I do not for one second agree that Turkey , the nation that 80% of Cypriots consider to be the invader of their nation , can possibly be a guarantor . There are other International forces the EU for one that would be acceptable to all parties since on arriving at a solution the T/Cs will have a voice at the EU .
We must make progress and move away from the highly contagious and highly inflammatory connections with Turkey and Greece, after all these are the two nations that divide our people. We can move on for as long as one or the other side do not demand direct interference from the two "cancers" of Cyprus.
As far you Zan I think is time to concentrate on building bridges of trust for our people not installing mines . I have posted more than 6 thousand posts , not once have I spewed hatred against our people , only against the fanatics who are entirely responsible for the pain and suffering of our people.Try doing the same mate.


First of all...Lets get this straight...You have made a statement about allowing my rights under the Zurich agreement but then added and "more" to the sentence....You need to be more specific. Do you want the Zurich agreement or are you telling me what you have been consistent in saying in that you think the EU laws is what you are talking about. You have no real intention of going back to the Zurich agreement. In my eyes you are just picking your words...Am I right?


You have and are constantly spewing out hatred towards my motherland. I can understand why you hate Greece after what they did but Turkey came and saved my aunts and cousins from certain death so I have respect for what they did. Perhaps more people on the island should show the same respect and understand circumstances but hey ho! What I intend to do is give you a more balanced understanding of the world and your bigoted view of all things Turkish or Muslim. You are no different to all those here that think that they can make themselves look better by running others down. Kikapu seems to suffer from the same affliction but does not know or accept what is going on on his own doorstep. How you can then not show some humility and accept what has happened in Cyprus and how we look to the rest of the world is beyond me. You have proved yourself once again by going on about the majority in Cyprus ruling the island but do not accept that special conditions have to be made because of the way things are in Cyprus.....What we are telling you is you are not going to get it all your own way. Turkey is needed by us in our hearts and in our minds.

I said you have the same rights as I have , NO MORE AND NO LESS .
Zurich agreement 1 billion percent . EU as a guarantor 2 billion percent , Turkey as a guarantor NO WAY !!
This I hope answers your question.
As far as me spewing hatred towards your "motherland" well sorry mate it ain't my motherland and neither is Greece , my motherland is Cyprus , therefore those whose allegiance is to a foreign power have a perfect right to go and join their respective motherlands.
Turkey is a vast country , a poor country , a country whose people are still struggling to earn their daily bread , I do not hate Turkey and neither do I hate Greece but I love Cyprus and I consider it as my country and the country of those whose allegiance is to this island not some foreign power such as Turkey or Greece.
I do not think that a single T/C would willingly emigrate to Turkey do you ?


How can you implement the Zurich agreement in it's entirety without Turkey then Miltiades. You have not been specific either about whether we can take our rightful place in government and exercise our veto. I still think you are choosing your words carefully. Prove me wrong. I think that you are saying that the "RoC" should stay the way it is and we should give everything up and let them have all the power.....Please be more specific.


Turkey forfeited its right to be included in the Treaty of Gaurantee when it broke the last one.


Didn't Makarios say the same thing in 1964 about the TCs????
User avatar
zan
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 16213
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:55 pm

Postby halil » Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:07 am

miltiades wrote:
halil wrote:
denizaksulu wrote:
zan wrote:
miltiades wrote:
zan wrote:
miltiades wrote:
zan wrote:
miltiades wrote:
T_C wrote:A former member of a Greek Cypriot underground group defending the unification of the island with Greece has confessed in remarks to the media that the group, along with Greek Cypriot soldiers, had raped women and killed men of a Turkish Cypriot village during a campaign of attacks on the Turkish population of Cyprus three decades ago.

The group, the National Organization of Cypriot Fighters (EOKA), launched attacks on Turkish Cypriots during the 1960s and early 1970s in a violent campaign aimed at enosis, or unification of Cyprus with Greece. Andreas Dimitriu, a 67 year-old Greek Cypriot who was a member of EOKA-B, an offshoot of EOKA, during the period of ethnic violence on the island, confessed in a media interview that he had helped to gather men of the Turkish Cypriot village of Tohni (Taşkent) in a coffee house.

The men were later taken away by EOKA-B members entering the village, and all but one male Turkish Cypriot had been killed, Dimitriu told Greek Cypriot newspaper Alithia on Sunday.

He, however, said that he was unaware that the Turkish Cypriot men were to be killed and that he learned their fate a few days afterward.

Turkish Cypriot women of the village were then raped by Greek Cypriot soldiers seeking revenge on Turkish Cypriots, he also said.

“Such things were happening at that time. What did we do that was different from what was going on all over Cyprus?” he asked.

The confessions came after a Turkish Cypriot woman who had survived the Greek Cypriot violence in Taşkent village identified Dimitriu during an earlier interview with the same newspaper as the person who had taken away her father.

Her father was among those killed by EOKA-B members in the village.

Dimitriu said he had thought the men rounded up in the village's coffee house would be held captive in order to get some Greek Cypriots held by Turkish Cypriots released and said that he had no idea that these men were to be killed.

“We were given the instruction to round up all the men capable of fighting to be used for the exchange of Greek Cypriot captives. We did whatever we did together with the legal forces of the state,” Dimitriu said.

Denktaş: Confessions are striking

Turkish Cypriot President Rauf Denktaş described Dimitriu's remarks as “highly striking” and added that it was a positive development that Greek Cypriots have started talking about the past.

Denktaş also said Greek Cypriots should apologize to Turkish Cypriots for the events of 1963-1974.

Turkey intervened in Cyprus in 1974 to end attacks on Turkish Cypriots as part of the bloody enosis campaign of the era, backed by the then ruling military junta in Greece.

TC , I would agree that horrendous acts were committed by extremists under the banner of EOKA B . Victims were not only T/Cs but also G/Cs. What I find totaly distasteful is the propaganda used by Turkey to justify its invasion of Cyprus. NO TURKISH CYPRIOTS WERE KILLED 7 YEARS PRIOPR TO THE TURKISH INVASION. This is a FACT .There is NO EVIDENCE that from 1966 to the invasion date of 1974 to suggest that any T/Cs lost their lives as a result of actions by G/Cs.
There is a propaganda side that pointed to a few days ago that actually states that the T/Cs wre butchered and massacred by G/Cs with the help of Greece from , wait for it , 1912 !!!!.
One such propagandist is Zan who shares all attributes that these semi illiterate propagandists have. Zan believes that I'm an ASSASSIN. This mentality is shared by all who fall under the spell of hateful propaganda.
The truth of the matter is that the first victims of the Inter communal turmoil were G/Cs in 1958 , there followed isolated conflict until the early 60s when extremists were in charge with impunity on both sides. Sevgul's book " Oysters with the missing pearls " is an admirable contribution to the understanding of what went on both in the early 60s and during the Turkish invasion.
All evidence points conclusively that the horrific acts committed by both sides were as a result of extremism and hatred.


I am sorry that I called you an assassin Miltiades...It is clear now that you are a fool.....You keep quoting your stupid "No TCS were killed between 67/74" as if means anything. How about you add the fact that we weree still under isolation from our own country because you still had not restored our rights under the Zurich agreement. If peace reined for so long a period that why was this status not returned to us and why were we still suffering under your regime. Is it because you knew Turkey would come but waited until a time when she was weak and then you started your assault. Just like that little piece of information I found about you moving troops ready to attack when you thought that Iran was going to attack Turkey??? You are not an assassin Miltiades but a blithering idiot who who is tantamount to a german leading Jews into the gas chambers and then saying it was orders. :evil: :evil:

I think you are desperately in need of a brain transplant mate !!!
What absolute garbage you post !! From 1963 to 1974 T/Cs were under the iron fist of the Grey Wolves directly imported into Cyprus by Turkey in order to instill the fear of God into the T/Cs. You dismiss the fact that NOT A SINGLE TURKISH CYPRIOT BECAME THE VICTIM OF G/Cs FROM 1967 TO 1974 AS MEANING NOTHING AT ALL !!!!
So , HAVING REALISED THAT I'M NOT AN ASSASIN , I'm now an SS Nazi . Therefore folks please take note the propagandist has lost the plot . A proof if needed that not only is he full of propaganda lies but that everything he states is a lie.
How many T/Cs or G/Cs would agree with you that Miltiades is paramount to a NAZI leading Jews into the gas chambers .
What a PLLLONKER !!



You are a Nazi in the sense that you will lead us to our destruction, but you are right...I am a plonker because I thought I would not have to spoon feed you with every little explanation but it seems I was wrong.



Let me ask you though and if you do not understand please let me know and I will make it more simple for you. Do you believe we should have our rights back under the Zurich agreement...Yes or OXI!!!!!!

Stop being so blatantly stupid. Of course the T/Cs should have every single right given to them under the Zurich agreements , every single one and more , all are Cypriots in my eyes and their rights are equal to mine no less and no more . Would you also agree that the 160 or so thousands of Cypriots who have had their lands and properties taken away from them should be given them back , and do you also agree that the Turkish occupation of Cyprus , your country and mine , should come to an end at the earliest opportunity.
I agree 1 billion percent that the T/Cs are an integral part of the Cypriot community and as such their human rights and the protection of such is pivotal to our democracy. They have as much right as the G/Cs have.
Let me quote a clitche . A man standing on his own has as much human rights as a man standing in a crowd.



Great! then you are in favour of Turkey being a guarantor power. You must therefore agree that we are allowed back into our rightful place in government.

I have to admit that the property issue is still a problem to me. I do agree that they should be fully compensated, without the need for the greedy sums asked for, because I do not think a mass movement of people is fair to anyone.



Is this the beginning of the end chapter of this war of words. Are we watching with glee a convergence of ideas between two very prolific authors on this forum. I cant wait. Another great try by Zan with another heave by Milti, we will have PEACE at last. Christofias and Talat please take note. :lol:


Dear friend Miltiades , few munites ago Talks are started in Cyprus ....We must talk peace .... it is true as Deniz is pointing out but I felt to make some correction for your comments .
It is not true that between 67-74 not single TC were harmed or get killed.

looks like you have forgetten

In mid-November 1967 notorious terrorist leader Gen. Georgios Grivas, who had been appointed by Makarios as the supreme commander of the Greek forces and sent clandestinely to the island by the Greek government and Greek Cypriot Armed Forces, launched an attack with the Greek Cypriot National Guard and the Greek militia forces on the Turkish Cypriot village of Kophinou (Geçitkale) and the Turkish inhabitants of the neighboring village of Ayinos Theodoros (Boğaziçi) in the Larnaca district. After hours of combat, close to dusk, 28 Turks were murdered and scores of others were wounded. Turkish homes were ransacked, looted and deliberately set on fire. Some of the wounded Turkish Cypriots had kerosene poured over them and were then set on fire.

Dear friend miltiades they are in past now ,sometimes things are annoys me trying to show the things differently or not giving enough information .

when those people reads from those villages they gets angry too .... look how they are lying how they are ignoring us they says .... I am here Miltiades , İ live in Cyprus and i can understand how sensible our people .

you see in two months time November will come ,there will be memorandum they for those people who lost their life in Gecitkale and Boğaziçi .

Lets hope goods things will come out from the talks today .Talks are showing live today from our TV. I will be very bussy today .....

Halil , I'm aware of the Kofinou events of November 15th 1967. My statement said """NOT A SINGLE TURKISH CYPRIOT BECAME THE VICTIM OF G/Cs FROM 1967 TO 1974 "
I apologise it should have said since 1967 . Do you know of other killings since 1967 please point a link for me.


Miltiades,
After the November 15th 1967 incident up to 74 not killing happened .
But in 74 it did happened .
Also after 74 border clashes happened between 2 sides and TC's and GC's get killed.

After 67 incidence in 68 talks are started in Cyprus between Chleridis and Denktash but some how , EOKA came back again at 15th july 74 and we all know what happened later on up to now .

by the way good things are happining in Cyprus now under age of 15 years old kids are met Kyreania for football match.
These kids are from AEL and ARİS From south .Doğan Türk Birliği and Akdeniz football teams from North .
first they made matches between 4 teams ,later they formed mixed 2 teams between them and they made match .
and mixed teams carried out pankart saying in Turkish and Greek .
For united Cyprus we are together,for colors of Cyprus we are together.

during the matches TC's and GC's kids were very friendly to each other .

Always i am saying Miltiades we must start from our Kids .If we can achive to build up trust between them we can solve everything .
than we can give the samples of USA,Canada or other federal countries how they lives together and they fights only for their own flag or country .
halil
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 8804
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:21 pm
Location: nicosia

Postby Magnus » Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:22 pm

Viewpoint wrote:
Magnus wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:What did you expect them to do under the circumstancies?


Well VP, I would expect them to behave like professionals and men of honour, not a bunch of despicable thugs. I would expect them to do what they agreed to do under the Treaty of Guarantee:

CYPRUS-TREATY OF GUARANTEE
Nicosia, 16 August 1960

ARTICLE IV
In the event of a breach of the provisions of the present Treaty, Greece, Turkey and the United Kingdom undertake to consult together with respect to the representations or measure necessary to ensure observance of those provisions.

In so far as common or concerted action may not prove possible, each of the three guaranteeing Powers reserves the right to take action with the sole aim of reestablishing the state of affairs created by the present Treaty.

http://teaching.law.cornell.edu/faculty ... rantee.pdf


I would expect them to preserve the safety and security of ALL Cypriots caught up in the fighting. I would expect them to put down the extremists/coupists and restore order as was their mandate and right as a guarantor.

And most of all I would expect them to do what they were meant to do and then get out of Cyprus.

How about you?


I agree if only the people they were trying to save did not bomb them and capitate soliders then put them on show, all hell broke loose and there are many examples throughout history that in times of war no one is safe. Although pointless death of innocent people is very very regretable should you not be blaming or asking for answers from those that placed you in such a position, hold those responsible who persecuted TCs and wanted to gift away Cyprus to Greece knowing full well the dangers it would behold for TCs, TCs had no choice they had to fight for survival.

As forleaving surely that will happen when we agree a solution and resolve our problems.


VP, the people who were trying to bomb the Turkish army etc were armed combatants. There is a vast difference between that and the average civilian and you can't seriously justify atrocities against civilians because armed combatants had the nerve to resist. It just doesn't work logically. That would be like saying 'it's ok for us to murder you and rape your women because some of your countrymen have been fighting against us'.

A truly professional army should be focused and disciplned enough to concentrate on their aims and certainly not have time to go around murdering and raping civilians. You know this as well as I do.

As for the Greeks and GCs responsible for the coup, of course we all blame them for their deeds, but as detestable as those people are/were we can only logically blame them for making Turkey intervene. We can't blame them for the atrocities carried out by the Turks once they arrived.
User avatar
Magnus
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 599
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 1:57 pm
Location: Me tous paranomous kai tous adikimenous

Postby miltiades » Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:59 pm

halil wrote:
miltiades wrote:
halil wrote:
denizaksulu wrote:
zan wrote:
miltiades wrote:
zan wrote:
miltiades wrote:
zan wrote:
miltiades wrote:
T_C wrote:A former member of a Greek Cypriot underground group defending the unification of the island with Greece has confessed in remarks to the media that the group, along with Greek Cypriot soldiers, had raped women and killed men of a Turkish Cypriot village during a campaign of attacks on the Turkish population of Cyprus three decades ago.

The group, the National Organization of Cypriot Fighters (EOKA), launched attacks on Turkish Cypriots during the 1960s and early 1970s in a violent campaign aimed at enosis, or unification of Cyprus with Greece. Andreas Dimitriu, a 67 year-old Greek Cypriot who was a member of EOKA-B, an offshoot of EOKA, during the period of ethnic violence on the island, confessed in a media interview that he had helped to gather men of the Turkish Cypriot village of Tohni (Taşkent) in a coffee house.

The men were later taken away by EOKA-B members entering the village, and all but one male Turkish Cypriot had been killed, Dimitriu told Greek Cypriot newspaper Alithia on Sunday.

He, however, said that he was unaware that the Turkish Cypriot men were to be killed and that he learned their fate a few days afterward.

Turkish Cypriot women of the village were then raped by Greek Cypriot soldiers seeking revenge on Turkish Cypriots, he also said.

“Such things were happening at that time. What did we do that was different from what was going on all over Cyprus?” he asked.

The confessions came after a Turkish Cypriot woman who had survived the Greek Cypriot violence in Taşkent village identified Dimitriu during an earlier interview with the same newspaper as the person who had taken away her father.

Her father was among those killed by EOKA-B members in the village.

Dimitriu said he had thought the men rounded up in the village's coffee house would be held captive in order to get some Greek Cypriots held by Turkish Cypriots released and said that he had no idea that these men were to be killed.

“We were given the instruction to round up all the men capable of fighting to be used for the exchange of Greek Cypriot captives. We did whatever we did together with the legal forces of the state,” Dimitriu said.

Denktaş: Confessions are striking

Turkish Cypriot President Rauf Denktaş described Dimitriu's remarks as “highly striking” and added that it was a positive development that Greek Cypriots have started talking about the past.

Denktaş also said Greek Cypriots should apologize to Turkish Cypriots for the events of 1963-1974.

Turkey intervened in Cyprus in 1974 to end attacks on Turkish Cypriots as part of the bloody enosis campaign of the era, backed by the then ruling military junta in Greece.

TC , I would agree that horrendous acts were committed by extremists under the banner of EOKA B . Victims were not only T/Cs but also G/Cs. What I find totaly distasteful is the propaganda used by Turkey to justify its invasion of Cyprus. NO TURKISH CYPRIOTS WERE KILLED 7 YEARS PRIOPR TO THE TURKISH INVASION. This is a FACT .There is NO EVIDENCE that from 1966 to the invasion date of 1974 to suggest that any T/Cs lost their lives as a result of actions by G/Cs.
There is a propaganda side that pointed to a few days ago that actually states that the T/Cs wre butchered and massacred by G/Cs with the help of Greece from , wait for it , 1912 !!!!.
One such propagandist is Zan who shares all attributes that these semi illiterate propagandists have. Zan believes that I'm an ASSASSIN. This mentality is shared by all who fall under the spell of hateful propaganda.
The truth of the matter is that the first victims of the Inter communal turmoil were G/Cs in 1958 , there followed isolated conflict until the early 60s when extremists were in charge with impunity on both sides. Sevgul's book " Oysters with the missing pearls " is an admirable contribution to the understanding of what went on both in the early 60s and during the Turkish invasion.
All evidence points conclusively that the horrific acts committed by both sides were as a result of extremism and hatred.


I am sorry that I called you an assassin Miltiades...It is clear now that you are a fool.....You keep quoting your stupid "No TCS were killed between 67/74" as if means anything. How about you add the fact that we weree still under isolation from our own country because you still had not restored our rights under the Zurich agreement. If peace reined for so long a period that why was this status not returned to us and why were we still suffering under your regime. Is it because you knew Turkey would come but waited until a time when she was weak and then you started your assault. Just like that little piece of information I found about you moving troops ready to attack when you thought that Iran was going to attack Turkey??? You are not an assassin Miltiades but a blithering idiot who who is tantamount to a german leading Jews into the gas chambers and then saying it was orders. :evil: :evil:

I think you are desperately in need of a brain transplant mate !!!
What absolute garbage you post !! From 1963 to 1974 T/Cs were under the iron fist of the Grey Wolves directly imported into Cyprus by Turkey in order to instill the fear of God into the T/Cs. You dismiss the fact that NOT A SINGLE TURKISH CYPRIOT BECAME THE VICTIM OF G/Cs FROM 1967 TO 1974 AS MEANING NOTHING AT ALL !!!!
So , HAVING REALISED THAT I'M NOT AN ASSASIN , I'm now an SS Nazi . Therefore folks please take note the propagandist has lost the plot . A proof if needed that not only is he full of propaganda lies but that everything he states is a lie.
How many T/Cs or G/Cs would agree with you that Miltiades is paramount to a NAZI leading Jews into the gas chambers .
What a PLLLONKER !!



You are a Nazi in the sense that you will lead us to our destruction, but you are right...I am a plonker because I thought I would not have to spoon feed you with every little explanation but it seems I was wrong.



Let me ask you though and if you do not understand please let me know and I will make it more simple for you. Do you believe we should have our rights back under the Zurich agreement...Yes or OXI!!!!!!

Stop being so blatantly stupid. Of course the T/Cs should have every single right given to them under the Zurich agreements , every single one and more , all are Cypriots in my eyes and their rights are equal to mine no less and no more . Would you also agree that the 160 or so thousands of Cypriots who have had their lands and properties taken away from them should be given them back , and do you also agree that the Turkish occupation of Cyprus , your country and mine , should come to an end at the earliest opportunity.
I agree 1 billion percent that the T/Cs are an integral part of the Cypriot community and as such their human rights and the protection of such is pivotal to our democracy. They have as much right as the G/Cs have.
Let me quote a clitche . A man standing on his own has as much human rights as a man standing in a crowd.



Great! then you are in favour of Turkey being a guarantor power. You must therefore agree that we are allowed back into our rightful place in government.

I have to admit that the property issue is still a problem to me. I do agree that they should be fully compensated, without the need for the greedy sums asked for, because I do not think a mass movement of people is fair to anyone.



Is this the beginning of the end chapter of this war of words. Are we watching with glee a convergence of ideas between two very prolific authors on this forum. I cant wait. Another great try by Zan with another heave by Milti, we will have PEACE at last. Christofias and Talat please take note. :lol:


Dear friend Miltiades , few munites ago Talks are started in Cyprus ....We must talk peace .... it is true as Deniz is pointing out but I felt to make some correction for your comments .
It is not true that between 67-74 not single TC were harmed or get killed.

looks like you have forgetten

In mid-November 1967 notorious terrorist leader Gen. Georgios Grivas, who had been appointed by Makarios as the supreme commander of the Greek forces and sent clandestinely to the island by the Greek government and Greek Cypriot Armed Forces, launched an attack with the Greek Cypriot National Guard and the Greek militia forces on the Turkish Cypriot village of Kophinou (Geçitkale) and the Turkish inhabitants of the neighboring village of Ayinos Theodoros (Boğaziçi) in the Larnaca district. After hours of combat, close to dusk, 28 Turks were murdered and scores of others were wounded. Turkish homes were ransacked, looted and deliberately set on fire. Some of the wounded Turkish Cypriots had kerosene poured over them and were then set on fire.

Dear friend miltiades they are in past now ,sometimes things are annoys me trying to show the things differently or not giving enough information .

when those people reads from those villages they gets angry too .... look how they are lying how they are ignoring us they says .... I am here Miltiades , İ live in Cyprus and i can understand how sensible our people .

you see in two months time November will come ,there will be memorandum they for those people who lost their life in Gecitkale and Boğaziçi .

Lets hope goods things will come out from the talks today .Talks are showing live today from our TV. I will be very bussy today .....

Halil , I'm aware of the Kofinou events of November 15th 1967. My statement said """NOT A SINGLE TURKISH CYPRIOT BECAME THE VICTIM OF G/Cs FROM 1967 TO 1974 "
I apologise it should have said since 1967 . Do you know of other killings since 1967 please point a link for me.


Miltiades,
After the November 15th 1967 incident up to 74 not killing happened .
But in 74 it did happened .
Also after 74 border clashes happened between 2 sides and TC's and GC's get killed.

After 67 incidence in 68 talks are started in Cyprus between Chleridis and Denktash but some how , EOKA came back again at 15th july 74 and we all know what happened later on up to now .

by the way good things are happining in Cyprus now under age of 15 years old kids are met Kyreania for football match.
These kids are from AEL and ARİS From south .Doğan Türk Birliği and Akdeniz football teams from North .
first they made matches between 4 teams ,later they formed mixed 2 teams between them and they made match .
and mixed teams carried out pankart saying in Turkish and Greek .
For united Cyprus we are together,for colors of Cyprus we are together.

during the matches TC's and GC's kids were very friendly to each other .

Always i am saying Miltiades we must start from our Kids .If we can achive to build up trust between them we can solve everything .
than we can give the samples of USA,Canada or other federal countries how they lives together and they fights only for their own flag or country .

I'm pleased to know that interaction between young football players is taking place. Its amazing how quickly both sides will discover that their Cypriotness far outweigh all other considerations.
Halil , you know me well enough and I'm certain that you understand the points that I'm making , which are fundamental in bringing our people together, firstly our people lived side by side for many many years in peace with each other , secondly both sides have extremists , those that hate the G/Cs and those that hate the T/Cs . These extremists are the ones responsible for all the problems that we experienced in Cyprus.
Let us hope we can all forgive and forget and get on with making Cyprus a wonderful place to live and to bring a family up.
User avatar
miltiades
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 19837
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:01 pm

Postby Magnus » Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:27 am

Does anybody want to comment on this article posted by Bill Cobbett?

bill cobbett wrote:"Atrocities against civilians by the Turkish army in 1974" . As all will know the European Commission on Human Rights looked in to the matter soon after the Barbaric Turkish Invasion and Ethnic Cleansing Operation.

The following is an article from The Sunday Times (London) of 23 January 1977 which gives the authors as this paper's Insight Team and which gives us some more background to the murderous and terrible goings on and the ECHR's damning verdict on the nice Turkish State.

"The terrible secrets of the Turkish invasion of Cyprus
The plight of Cyprus, with 40 per cent of the island still occupied by Turkish troops who invaded in the summer of 1974, is well known. But never before has the full story been told of what happened during and after the invasion. This article is based on the secret report of the European Commission of Human Rights. For obvious reasons, Insight has withdrawn the names of witnesses who gave evidence to the Commission.

INSIGHT

Killing
Relevant Article of Human Rights Convention: Everyone's right to life shall be protected by law.

Charge made by Greek Cypriots: The Turkish army embarked on a systematic course of mass killings of civilians unconnected with any war activity.

Turkish Defence: None offered, but jurisdiction challenged. By letter dated November 27, 1975, Turkey told the Commission it refused to accept the Greek Cypriot administration's right to go to the commission, "since there is no authority which can properly require the Turkish government to recognise against its will the legitimacy of a government which has usurped the powers of the state in violation of the constitution of which Turkey is a guarantor." No defence therefore offered to any other charges either.

Evidence given to the commission: Witness Mrs K said that on July 21, 1974, the second day of the Turkish invasion, she and a group of villagers from Elia were captured when, fleeing from bombardment, they tried to reach a range of mountains. All 12 men arrested were civilians. They were separated from the women and shot in front of the women, under the orders of a Turkish officer. Some of the men were holding children, three of whom were wounded.

Written statements referred to two more group killings: at Trimithi eyewitnesses told of the deaths of five men (two shepherds aged 60 and 70, two masons of 20 and 60, and a 19-year-old plumber). At Palekythron 30 Greek Cypriot soldiers being held prisoner were killed by their captors, according to the second statement.

Witness S gave evidence of two other mass killings at Palekythron. In each case, between 30 and 40 soldiers who had surrendered to the advancing Turks were shot. In the second case, the witness said, "the soldiers were transferred to the kilns of the village where they were shot dead and burnt in order not to leave details of what had happened."

Seventeen members of two neighbouring families, including 10 women and five children aged between two and nine were murdered in cold blood at Palekythron, reported witness H, a doctor. Further killing described in the doctor's notes, recording evidence related to him by patients (either eye-witnesses or victims) included:

Execution of eight civilians taken prisoner by Turkish soldiers in the area of Prastio, one day after the ceasefire on August 16, 1974.
Killing by Turkish soldiers of five unarmed Greek Cypriot soldiers who had sought refuge in a house at Voni.
Shooting of four women, one of whom survived by pretending she was dead.
Further evidence, taken in refugees camps and in the form of written statements, described killings of civilians in homes, streets or fields, as well as the killing of people under arrest or in detention. Eight statements described the killing of soldiers not in combat; five statements referred to a mass grave found in Dherynia.

Commission's verdict: By 14 votes to one, the commission considered there were "very strong indications" of violation of Article 2 and killings "committed on a substantial scale."

Rape
Relevant article: No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Charge by Greek Cypriots: Turkish troops were responsible for wholesale and repeated rapes of women of all ages from 12 to 71, sometimes to such an extent that the victims suffered haemorrhages or became mental wrecks. In some areas, enforced prostitution was practised, all women and girls of a village being collected and put into separate rooms in empty houses where they were raped repeatedly.

In certain cases members of the same family were repeatedly raped, some of them in front of their own children. In other cases women were brutally raped in public.

Rapes were on many occassions accompanied by brutalities such as violent biting of the victims causing severe wounding, banging their heads on the floor and wringing their throats almost to the point of suffocation. In some cases attempts to rape were followed by the stabbing or killing of the victims, victims included pregnant and mentally-retarded women.

Evidence to commission: Testimony of doctors C and H, who examined the victims. Eyewitnesses and hearsay witnesses also gave evidence, and the commission had before it written statements from 41 alleged victims.

Dr H said he had confirmed rape in 70 cases, including:

A mentally-retarded girl of 24 was raped in her house by 20 soldiers. When she started screaming they threw her from the second-floor window. She fractured her spine and was paralysed;
One day after their arrival at Voni, Turks took girls to a nearby house and raped them;
One woman from Voni was raped on three occassions by four persons each time. She became pregnant;
One girl, from Palekyhthrou, who was held with others in a house, was taken out at gunpoint and raped;
At Tanvu, Turkish soldiers tried to rape a 17-year-old schoolgirl. She resisted and was shot dead;
A woman from Gypsou told Dr H that 25 girls were kept by Turks at Marathouvouno as prostitutes.
Another witness said that his wife was raped in front of their children. Witness S told of 25 girls who complained to Turkish officers about being raped and were raped again by the officers. A man (name withheld) reported that his wife was stabbed in the neck while resisting rape. His grand-daughter, aged six, had been stabbed and killed by Turkish soldiers attempting to rape her.

A Red Cross witness said that in August 1974, while the island's telephones were still working, the Red Cross Society recieved calls from Palekyhthrou and Kaponti reporting rapes. The Red Cross also took care of 38 women released from Voni and Gypsou detention camps: all had been raped, some in front of their husbands and children. Others had been raped repeatedly, or put in houses frequented by Turkish soldiers.

These women were taken to Akrotiri hospital, in the British Sovereign Base Area, where they were treated. Three were found to be pregnant. Reference was also made to several abortions performed at the base.

Commission's verdict: By 12 votes to one the commission found "that the incidents of rape described in the cases referred to and regarded as established constitute 'inhuman treatment' and thus violations of Article 3 for which Turkey is responsible under the convention."

Torture
Relevant article: see above under Rape.

Charge by Greek-Cypriots: Hundreds of people, including children, women and pensioners, were victims of systematic torture and savage and humiliating treatment during their detention by the Turkish army. They were beaten, according to the allegations, sometimes to the extent of being incapacitated. Many were subjected to whipping, breaking of their teeth, knocking their heads against walls, beating with electrified clubs, stubbing of cigarettes on their skin, jumping and stepping on their chests an hands, pouring dirty liquids on them, piercing with bayonets, etc.

Many, it was said, were ill-treated to such an extent that they became mental and physical wrecks. The brutalities complained of reached their climax after the ceasefire agreements; in fact, most of the acts described were committed at a time when Turkish armed forces were not engaged in any war activities.

Evidence to Commission: Main witness was schoolteacher, one of 2,000 Greek Cypriot men deported to Turkey. He stated that he and his fellow detainees were repeatedly beaten after their arrest, on their way to Adana (in Turkey), in jail in Adana and in prison camp at Amasya.

On ship to Turkey - "That was another moment of terrible beating again. We were tied all the time. I lost sense of touch. I could not feel anything for about two or three months. Every time we asked for water or spoke we were being beaten."

Arriving at Adana - "...then, one by one, they led us to prisons, through a long corridor ... Going through that corridor was another terrible experience. There were about 100 soldiers from both sides with sticks, clubs and with their fists beating every one of us while going to the other end of the corridor .I was beaten at least 50 times until I reached the other end.

In Adana anyone who said he wanted to see a doctor was beaten. "Beating was on the agenda every day. There were one or two very good, very nice people, but they were afraid to show their kindness,as they told us."

Witness P spoke of:

A fellow prisoner who was kicked in the mouth. He lost several teeth "and his lower jaw came off in pieces."
A Turkish officer, a karate student, who exercised every day by hitting prisoners.
Fellow prisoners who were hung by the feet over the hole of a lavatory for hours.
A Turkish second lieutenant who used to prick all prisoners with a pin when they were taken into a yard.
Evidence from Dr H said that prisoners were in an emaciated condition on their return to Cyprus. On nine occasions he had found signs of wounds.

The doctor gave a general description of conditions in Adana and in detention camps in Cyprus (at Pavlides Garage and the Saray Prison in the Turkish quarter of Nicosia) as reported to him by former detainees. Food, he said, consisted of one-eighth of a loaf of bread a day, with occasional olives; there were two buckets of water and two mugs which were never cleaned, from which about 1,000 people had to drink; toilets were filthy, with faeces rising over the basins; floors ere covered faeces and urine; in jail in Adana prisoners were kept 76 to a cell with three towels between them and one block of soap per eight persons per month to wash themselves and their clothes.

One man, it was alleged, had to amputate his own toes with a razor blade as a consequence of ill-treatment. Caught in Achna with another man, they had been beaten up with hard objects. When he had asked for a glass of water he was given a glass full of urine. His toes were then stepped on until they became blue, swollen and eventually gangrenous. (The other man was said to have been taken to hospital in Nicosia, where he agreed to have his legs amputated. He did not survive the operation.)

According to witness S, "hundred of Greek Cypriots were beaten and dozens were executed. They have cut off their ears in some cases, like the case of Palekythro and Trahoni..." (verbatim record).

Verdict by commission: By 12 votes to one, the commission concluded that prisoners were in a number of cases physically ill-treated by Turkish soldiers. "These acts of ill-treatment caused considerable injuries and in at least one case, the death of the victim. By their severity they constitute 'inhuman treatment' in the sense of Article 3, for which Turkey is responsible under the convention."

Looting
Relevant article: Every natural or legal person is entitled to the peaceful enjoyment of his possessions.

Charge by Greek Cypriots: In all Turkish-occupied areas, the Turkish army systematically looted houses and business premises of Greek Cypriots.

Evidence to the commission: Looting in Kyrenia was described by witness C: "...The first days of looting of the shops was done by the army, of heavy things like refrigerators, laundry machines, television sets" (verbatim record).

For the weeks after the invasion, he said, he had watched Turkish naval ships taking on board the looted goods.

Witness K, a barrister, described the pillage of Famagusta: "At two o'clock on organised, systematic, terrifying, shocking, unbelievable looting started... We heard the breaking of doors, some of them iron doors, smashing of glass, and we were waiting for them any minute to enter the house. This lasted for about four hours."

Written statements by eyewitnesses of looting were corroborated by several reports by the secretary-general of the United Nations.

Verdict of the commission: The commission accepted that looting and robbery on an extensive scale, by Turkish troops and Turkish Cypriots, had taken place. By 12 votes to one, it established that there had been deprivation of possessions of Greek Cypriots on a large scale.

Other charges
On four counts: the commission concluded that Turkey had also violated an Article of the Convention asserting the right to respect for private and family life, home and correspondence. The commission also decided that Turkey was continuing to violate the Article by refusing to allow the return of more than 170,000 Greek Cypriot refugees to their homes in the north.

On three counts: the commission said Turkey had violated two more articles that specify that the rights and freedoms in the Convention shall be secured without discrimination on any ground, and that anyone whose rights are violated "shall have an effective remedy before a national authority.""
User avatar
Magnus
Contributor
Contributor
 
Posts: 599
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 1:57 pm
Location: Me tous paranomous kai tous adikimenous

Postby zan » Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:37 am

Not tonight Magnus but why don't you do some research and see what the coupists did to their own as well......You might even find out what happened in 1963 to the TCs.......

Good night...Early one for me in the morning!!!
User avatar
zan
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 16213
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:55 pm

Postby DT. » Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:21 am

Magnus wrote:Does anybody want to comment on this article posted by Bill Cobbett?

bill cobbett wrote:"Atrocities against civilians by the Turkish army in 1974" . As all will know the European Commission on Human Rights looked in to the matter soon after the Barbaric Turkish Invasion and Ethnic Cleansing Operation.

The following is an article from The Sunday Times (London) of 23 January 1977 which gives the authors as this paper's Insight Team and which gives us some more background to the murderous and terrible goings on and the ECHR's damning verdict on the nice Turkish State.

"The terrible secrets of the Turkish invasion of Cyprus
The plight of Cyprus, with 40 per cent of the island still occupied by Turkish troops who invaded in the summer of 1974, is well known. But never before has the full story been told of what happened during and after the invasion. This article is based on the secret report of the European Commission of Human Rights. For obvious reasons, Insight has withdrawn the names of witnesses who gave evidence to the Commission.

INSIGHT

Killing
Relevant Article of Human Rights Convention: Everyone's right to life shall be protected by law.

Charge made by Greek Cypriots: The Turkish army embarked on a systematic course of mass killings of civilians unconnected with any war activity.

Turkish Defence: None offered, but jurisdiction challenged. By letter dated November 27, 1975, Turkey told the Commission it refused to accept the Greek Cypriot administration's right to go to the commission, "since there is no authority which can properly require the Turkish government to recognise against its will the legitimacy of a government which has usurped the powers of the state in violation of the constitution of which Turkey is a guarantor." No defence therefore offered to any other charges either.

Evidence given to the commission: Witness Mrs K said that on July 21, 1974, the second day of the Turkish invasion, she and a group of villagers from Elia were captured when, fleeing from bombardment, they tried to reach a range of mountains. All 12 men arrested were civilians. They were separated from the women and shot in front of the women, under the orders of a Turkish officer. Some of the men were holding children, three of whom were wounded.

Written statements referred to two more group killings: at Trimithi eyewitnesses told of the deaths of five men (two shepherds aged 60 and 70, two masons of 20 and 60, and a 19-year-old plumber). At Palekythron 30 Greek Cypriot soldiers being held prisoner were killed by their captors, according to the second statement.

Witness S gave evidence of two other mass killings at Palekythron. In each case, between 30 and 40 soldiers who had surrendered to the advancing Turks were shot. In the second case, the witness said, "the soldiers were transferred to the kilns of the village where they were shot dead and burnt in order not to leave details of what had happened."

Seventeen members of two neighbouring families, including 10 women and five children aged between two and nine were murdered in cold blood at Palekythron, reported witness H, a doctor. Further killing described in the doctor's notes, recording evidence related to him by patients (either eye-witnesses or victims) included:

Execution of eight civilians taken prisoner by Turkish soldiers in the area of Prastio, one day after the ceasefire on August 16, 1974.
Killing by Turkish soldiers of five unarmed Greek Cypriot soldiers who had sought refuge in a house at Voni.
Shooting of four women, one of whom survived by pretending she was dead.
Further evidence, taken in refugees camps and in the form of written statements, described killings of civilians in homes, streets or fields, as well as the killing of people under arrest or in detention. Eight statements described the killing of soldiers not in combat; five statements referred to a mass grave found in Dherynia.

Commission's verdict: By 14 votes to one, the commission considered there were "very strong indications" of violation of Article 2 and killings "committed on a substantial scale."

Rape
Relevant article: No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Charge by Greek Cypriots: Turkish troops were responsible for wholesale and repeated rapes of women of all ages from 12 to 71, sometimes to such an extent that the victims suffered haemorrhages or became mental wrecks. In some areas, enforced prostitution was practised, all women and girls of a village being collected and put into separate rooms in empty houses where they were raped repeatedly.

In certain cases members of the same family were repeatedly raped, some of them in front of their own children. In other cases women were brutally raped in public.

Rapes were on many occassions accompanied by brutalities such as violent biting of the victims causing severe wounding, banging their heads on the floor and wringing their throats almost to the point of suffocation. In some cases attempts to rape were followed by the stabbing or killing of the victims, victims included pregnant and mentally-retarded women.

Evidence to commission: Testimony of doctors C and H, who examined the victims. Eyewitnesses and hearsay witnesses also gave evidence, and the commission had before it written statements from 41 alleged victims.

Dr H said he had confirmed rape in 70 cases, including:

A mentally-retarded girl of 24 was raped in her house by 20 soldiers. When she started screaming they threw her from the second-floor window. She fractured her spine and was paralysed;
One day after their arrival at Voni, Turks took girls to a nearby house and raped them;
One woman from Voni was raped on three occassions by four persons each time. She became pregnant;
One girl, from Palekyhthrou, who was held with others in a house, was taken out at gunpoint and raped;
At Tanvu, Turkish soldiers tried to rape a 17-year-old schoolgirl. She resisted and was shot dead;
A woman from Gypsou told Dr H that 25 girls were kept by Turks at Marathouvouno as prostitutes.
Another witness said that his wife was raped in front of their children. Witness S told of 25 girls who complained to Turkish officers about being raped and were raped again by the officers. A man (name withheld) reported that his wife was stabbed in the neck while resisting rape. His grand-daughter, aged six, had been stabbed and killed by Turkish soldiers attempting to rape her.

A Red Cross witness said that in August 1974, while the island's telephones were still working, the Red Cross Society recieved calls from Palekyhthrou and Kaponti reporting rapes. The Red Cross also took care of 38 women released from Voni and Gypsou detention camps: all had been raped, some in front of their husbands and children. Others had been raped repeatedly, or put in houses frequented by Turkish soldiers.

These women were taken to Akrotiri hospital, in the British Sovereign Base Area, where they were treated. Three were found to be pregnant. Reference was also made to several abortions performed at the base.

Commission's verdict: By 12 votes to one the commission found "that the incidents of rape described in the cases referred to and regarded as established constitute 'inhuman treatment' and thus violations of Article 3 for which Turkey is responsible under the convention."

Torture
Relevant article: see above under Rape.

Charge by Greek-Cypriots: Hundreds of people, including children, women and pensioners, were victims of systematic torture and savage and humiliating treatment during their detention by the Turkish army. They were beaten, according to the allegations, sometimes to the extent of being incapacitated. Many were subjected to whipping, breaking of their teeth, knocking their heads against walls, beating with electrified clubs, stubbing of cigarettes on their skin, jumping and stepping on their chests an hands, pouring dirty liquids on them, piercing with bayonets, etc.

Many, it was said, were ill-treated to such an extent that they became mental and physical wrecks. The brutalities complained of reached their climax after the ceasefire agreements; in fact, most of the acts described were committed at a time when Turkish armed forces were not engaged in any war activities.

Evidence to Commission: Main witness was schoolteacher, one of 2,000 Greek Cypriot men deported to Turkey. He stated that he and his fellow detainees were repeatedly beaten after their arrest, on their way to Adana (in Turkey), in jail in Adana and in prison camp at Amasya.

On ship to Turkey - "That was another moment of terrible beating again. We were tied all the time. I lost sense of touch. I could not feel anything for about two or three months. Every time we asked for water or spoke we were being beaten."

Arriving at Adana - "...then, one by one, they led us to prisons, through a long corridor ... Going through that corridor was another terrible experience. There were about 100 soldiers from both sides with sticks, clubs and with their fists beating every one of us while going to the other end of the corridor .I was beaten at least 50 times until I reached the other end.

In Adana anyone who said he wanted to see a doctor was beaten. "Beating was on the agenda every day. There were one or two very good, very nice people, but they were afraid to show their kindness,as they told us."

Witness P spoke of:

A fellow prisoner who was kicked in the mouth. He lost several teeth "and his lower jaw came off in pieces."
A Turkish officer, a karate student, who exercised every day by hitting prisoners.
Fellow prisoners who were hung by the feet over the hole of a lavatory for hours.
A Turkish second lieutenant who used to prick all prisoners with a pin when they were taken into a yard.
Evidence from Dr H said that prisoners were in an emaciated condition on their return to Cyprus. On nine occasions he had found signs of wounds.

The doctor gave a general description of conditions in Adana and in detention camps in Cyprus (at Pavlides Garage and the Saray Prison in the Turkish quarter of Nicosia) as reported to him by former detainees. Food, he said, consisted of one-eighth of a loaf of bread a day, with occasional olives; there were two buckets of water and two mugs which were never cleaned, from which about 1,000 people had to drink; toilets were filthy, with faeces rising over the basins; floors ere covered faeces and urine; in jail in Adana prisoners were kept 76 to a cell with three towels between them and one block of soap per eight persons per month to wash themselves and their clothes.

One man, it was alleged, had to amputate his own toes with a razor blade as a consequence of ill-treatment. Caught in Achna with another man, they had been beaten up with hard objects. When he had asked for a glass of water he was given a glass full of urine. His toes were then stepped on until they became blue, swollen and eventually gangrenous. (The other man was said to have been taken to hospital in Nicosia, where he agreed to have his legs amputated. He did not survive the operation.)

According to witness S, "hundred of Greek Cypriots were beaten and dozens were executed. They have cut off their ears in some cases, like the case of Palekythro and Trahoni..." (verbatim record).

Verdict by commission: By 12 votes to one, the commission concluded that prisoners were in a number of cases physically ill-treated by Turkish soldiers. "These acts of ill-treatment caused considerable injuries and in at least one case, the death of the victim. By their severity they constitute 'inhuman treatment' in the sense of Article 3, for which Turkey is responsible under the convention."

Looting
Relevant article: Every natural or legal person is entitled to the peaceful enjoyment of his possessions.

Charge by Greek Cypriots: In all Turkish-occupied areas, the Turkish army systematically looted houses and business premises of Greek Cypriots.

Evidence to the commission: Looting in Kyrenia was described by witness C: "...The first days of looting of the shops was done by the army, of heavy things like refrigerators, laundry machines, television sets" (verbatim record).

For the weeks after the invasion, he said, he had watched Turkish naval ships taking on board the looted goods.

Witness K, a barrister, described the pillage of Famagusta: "At two o'clock on organised, systematic, terrifying, shocking, unbelievable looting started... We heard the breaking of doors, some of them iron doors, smashing of glass, and we were waiting for them any minute to enter the house. This lasted for about four hours."

Written statements by eyewitnesses of looting were corroborated by several reports by the secretary-general of the United Nations.

Verdict of the commission: The commission accepted that looting and robbery on an extensive scale, by Turkish troops and Turkish Cypriots, had taken place. By 12 votes to one, it established that there had been deprivation of possessions of Greek Cypriots on a large scale.

Other charges
On four counts: the commission concluded that Turkey had also violated an Article of the Convention asserting the right to respect for private and family life, home and correspondence. The commission also decided that Turkey was continuing to violate the Article by refusing to allow the return of more than 170,000 Greek Cypriot refugees to their homes in the north.

On three counts: the commission said Turkey had violated two more articles that specify that the rights and freedoms in the Convention shall be secured without discrimination on any ground, and that anyone whose rights are violated "shall have an effective remedy before a national authority.""


Its not gonna happen is it?
User avatar
DT.
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 12682
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 8:34 pm
Location: Lefkosia

Postby denizaksulu » Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:35 am

I condemn any mistreatment, rape, murder of persons and looting/destruction of any properties anywhere. If the allegations are true, then there is no excuse for these. It is simply abhorable. Needless to say thmy condemnation goes to both sides where applicable. Others on the forum have already condemned these acts, so please get off your high horses. Perhaps you are too fresh on the forum.

Have a good day. :?
User avatar
denizaksulu
Forum Addict
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 36077
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 11:04 am

Postby Nikitas » Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:42 am

THeft on a grand scale. With naval ships taking on the loot, which tells a lot about the honor of the naval officers involved and the ethos of the navy. And obviously you cannot bring stuff onboard unless the high command gives its OK. In other words they knew and approved of the thieving. A policy which has gone unabated since then.
Nikitas
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 7420
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:49 pm

Postby Nikitas » Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:44 am

"Arriving at Adana - "...then, one by one, they led us to prisons, through a long corridor ... Going through that corridor was another terrible experience. There were about 100 soldiers from both sides with sticks, clubs and with their fists beating every one of us while going to the other end of the corridor .I was beaten at least 50 times until I reached the other end. "

This is EXACTLY how a chartered accountant from London who was captured in Kythrea described the Adana treatment to me in 1975.
Nikitas
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 7420
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:49 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Cyprus Problem

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests