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Cyprus' problem solved: what do you think of the solution?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Cyprus' problem solved: what do you think of the solution?

Postby cymbaloum » Sun Apr 25, 2004 6:54 pm

I would like to ask a question to people from Cyprus, but first, a little introduction.

I'm a guy living in Switzerland, and I first heard about Cyprus' problems while visiting Greece, a few years ago. I remembered seeing on the TV a young men climbing a pole on a border to take away a Turkish flag. He was shot in the head and fell dead to the ground. I will never forget those pictures, and it did not made me think favorably of the Turkish attitude in Cyprus. (I think it's understandable to protect one's flag, but life is precious. They could simply have arrested him, what's the point of killing a person?)

Anyway, since then I learned a bit about the circumstances of the crisis (the putsh followed by the Turkish invasion and colonisation, the UN action to maintain peace between both sides). I was very hopefull that the UN would manage to organise a peaceful settlement to the crisis, and was mostly concerned with the attitude of Denktash. However it turned out that Denktash was sidelined, from outside (Turkey) and from inside (cyprus turks). But in the end the settlement was rejected by the greek people.

From what I understood, the greeks say they refused the settlement because
- the Turkish army would maintain some presence in Cyprus
- the settlers would not return to Turkey
- there would not be total compensation for the greeks who lost property during the invasion
- there was no clear plan on how the federation would have worked

Personally, I don't get it: the Turkish army would have maintained some temporary presence (considering past history, I understand that cypriotic turks would like to keep some guarantees), but once within the EU, Cyprus has nothing to fear from Turkey. Even more so as long as Turkey wants to join the EU.

As for the settlers, it seems irrealistic to expect that people will just go after 30 years of building their lives somewhere. If one truly believes that, then I don't think one is really ready to find a real-world solution.

In regards to the compensation, I think with this choice greeks will get NO compensation at all.

About the lack of a clear path to a working federation, I think it's an objection I understand and agree. But I don't think it justifies an "oxi": this referendum was the last possibility for finding a compromise to the Cyprus question, and I think most people realised it. After the people make a decision via a referendum, it's nearly impossible to overturn it. When there is only one boat to go somewhere, and we refuse to take it because we don't like it, basically it means we don't want to go there, regardless of the spoken or unspoken reasons.

I have a lot of consideration for referendums. Here in Switzerland there are dozens of them a year, the people's oppinion is constantly required. So I think it was really good to have had this referendum, because it cleared up many questions.

- cypriotic greeks prefer to have two states in Cyprus instead of having to share a state with turks living in Cyprus
- Turks living in Cyprus are ready to be in a state independent from Turkey

I think this was the last time events were in the hands of the cypriotic greek people. From now on things will go independently of what they want or not.

There will be probably two states in Cyprus. The greeks will form a greek state, independent of Greece (a land only joins another if this is in it's interests, and that's not the case for greek Cyprus), and the turks will have a state recognised by the international community, which will probably join the EU (if the greek state can join, there is no real reason the turk state cannot, and it will be difficult for Turkey to prevent that, considering the results of the referendum).

So the problem is solved, an the greeks will get what they want, a state without turkish minority (for the moment, because when both are in the EU, turks will anyway be able to go to the greek part :wink: ). This reminds me of Czech and Slovakia: both decided to form independent countries out of Czechoslovakia, and everybody was fine with it.

So my question is, do the cypriotic greeks agree that the case is settled, and that everybody can go on with their lives and put this issue behind them?

PS: I hope people are not going to simply say that as a foreigner I don't understand what's going on. I don't claim to understand what's REALLY going on, but you have to keep in mind that my opinions, true or erroneous, are probably those of most of the international community, and cannot be simply discounted with a casual "you can't understand".
Last edited by cymbaloum on Sun Apr 25, 2004 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Piratis » Sun Apr 25, 2004 7:16 pm

In 1974 there was an invasion with 200.000 Greek Cypriot refugees. The state in the north is illegal.
Greek Cypriots want reunification, not the loose association the Annan plan would create. We don't want Turkey to have the right to intervene in Cyprus whenever it sees fit.

According to your logic, if I come to your house, steal your property and rape your daughters if I will then give you back some of your property and retain the right to come and rape your daughters again, not only you should accept but you should say "thank you"?

The proplem is not solved. It will when we find a solution that both sides will accept.
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Postby cymbaloum » Sun Apr 25, 2004 8:09 pm

Piratis wrote:In 1974 there was an invasion with 200.000 Greek Cypriot refugees. The state in the north is illegal.


This has changed with the referendum. The "oxi" of the greeks gives legitimacy to a turkish state in Cyprus, or do you think that the international community will keep isolating the turks after the results of their vote?

We don't want Turkey to have the right to intervene in Cyprus whenever it sees fit.


With Cyprus in the EU, Turkey's influence would have decreased. It seems to me that if one was really interested in decreasing Turkey's influence in Cyprus, saying "yes" would have been a better solution than a "no". As it is, the Turks will probably stay longer than with an settlement. But I agree that with a "no" greek Cyprus is more out of reach of Turkey. Greek Cyprus, not Cyprus itself.

According to your logic, if I come to your house, steal your property and rape your daughters if I will then give you back some of your property and retain the right to come and rape your daughters again, not only you should accept but you should say "thank you"?


I understand that you feel disgruntled about what happened, and I would not have liked to have the same in my country. That's why the international community was favorable to the greek side.

Many bad things happened, but this does not mean you can go back to exactly how it was before. If you think that, you are not looking for a negotiated, real world solution. People have come, and made their lives in Cyprus, this is inescapable.

The same thing happened for instance in Tibet with the Chinese, but worse, since nowadays most of people of Tibet are chinese! The Dalai-Lama wants a viable solution for Tibet, and thus he does not ask for all these chinese to be returned to China. It's horribly unfair, but chinese presence in Tibet is a fact. The only way to remove the chinese population from Tibet is to wage war on them (which of course is impossible for the Tibetans). Likewise, the only way to remove all the turkish settlers would be some kind of ethnic purification, which the international community would not accept. Anyway this would lead to further disaster to Cyprus, as serbian and german experience has shown.

So if you really want to have a united Cyprus "like it was before", you are not ready for a real-world compromise.

This reminds me of someone who would cross a street in front of a high speed car when the lights are green for pedestrians. After the accident, he would be on the good side of the law, but he would be dead.

Faced with the choice of accepting some of the consequences of the invasion to be able to reunite Cyprus or making two separate states in Cyprus, the greeks chose the second option. Sure the greeks would have prefered an united Cyprus "like it was before", but that was not an option, or at least not a negotiable option.

There's nothing wrong in that decision, in my opinion. It means simply that the greeks would prefer to keep a state in which they have full control, instead of sharing power in a federation comprising cypriotic turks and settlers.

It's tough to live in a country with different ethinic groups. Estonian population is by one third russian, many balkan countries have sizeable minorities. Here in Switzerland there are four main communities. Living with the others is tough, requires lots of negotiation and compromise. The greeks opted for another way. The greeks voiced their opinion, and I think everybody understood it and will respect that.

The proplem is not solved. It will when we find a solution that both sides will accept.


Like I say, I think the problem is solved. Once the cypriotic Turks get a state, and join the EU, they will have no interest in fusing with a federation in which they would be a minority, just like greek Cyprus will not join Greece. To have a legal union, you need agreement of both parties, and I think this was the best oportunity to get one from the cypriotic turks. From now on their interest will wane, since they will get benefits without union with the greek state.
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Postby Piratis » Sun Apr 25, 2004 8:30 pm

The "oxi" of the greeks gives legitimacy to a turkish state in Cyprus


Nothing can give legitimacy to an invasion and occupation of an independent country.
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Postby Piratis » Sun Apr 25, 2004 8:36 pm

And if you believe that Turkey can never intervene in EU ground then check the following address out to learn what happened at Imia some years ago:

http://www.hri.org/mod/Imia/imia.htm

All they need is an excuse. And the Annan plan gave them the full right to intervene whenever they see fit.
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Postby cymbaloum » Sun Apr 25, 2004 8:54 pm

Piratis wrote: Nothing can give legitimacy to an invasion and occupation of an independent country.


I agree totally! It was not legitimate for the Turkish government to invade and colonize Cyprus. I totally agree with you, rest assured, and probably also most people in the world agree with you.

Unfortunatelly that's not the question. The issue is that you have a population without an internationally recognized situation. The option of union with the greek side was favored by the international community, but failed.

The only remaining options for northen Cyprus are union with Turkey,which I think the international community would oppose, and cypriotic turks would refuse, or an independent state, recognized internationally. I guess this is the most likely option.
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Postby Piratis » Sun Apr 25, 2004 9:11 pm

We did not reject reunification, what we rejected was the particular plan that creates something that is simply a loose association and not a union.

We want to live in one country along with Turkish Cypriots. Don't get the wrong message. The question in the referendum was "Do you accept the Annan plan..." not "Do you want to live with Turkish Cypriots..."

In this forum we even compared the constitution proposed to us with the swiss one. have a look here:

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... ation#1157
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Postby PEACE » Fri Apr 30, 2004 10:43 pm

According to your logic, if I come to your house, steal your property and rape your daughters if I will then give you back some of your property and retain the right to come and rape your daughters again, not only you should accept but you should say "thank you"?


Noone is talking about before 1974 and Greece Junta and EOKA! :roll:

Noone is asking why Turkey came to island! Junta and EOKA-B was doing massacre in Cyprus! They tried to clean Turkish Cypriots etnically from the island! :roll:

I don't approve what Turkey did after 1974! But also we can't forget before 1974 !

What sanction did the world applied to Greece for the violation of Guarantee Agreement?

On the other hand world didn't force Turkey after 1974 so much also...
Why world applied embargoes and pressure to Turkish Cypriots but not to Turkey directly? :(

World is not applying any embargoes to Turkey now but we are crushing under hard embargoes ! :( This is not fair ! Its Turkey who is responsible of this illegality in North ! If embargoes which are applied to innocent Turkish Cypriots applied to Turkey now this illegal situation won't be in North!

Turkish Cypriots became very happy after Junta and EOKA-B's massacres ended ! They supposed that they are "saved". But after 1-2 years they started to realise what happened! Now you can see Turkish Cypriot's reactions to Turkey and to Denktaş!
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Postby PEACE » Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:12 pm

PS: I hope people are not going to simply say that as a foreigner I don't understand what's going on. I don't claim to understand what's REALLY going on, but you have to keep in mind that my opinions, true or erroneous, are probably those of most of the international community, and cannot be simply discounted with a casual "you can't understand


No,you understand the problem very good ! :wink: But you forgot to talk about before 1974 ! Turkey is guilty! But Greece and Greek Cypriots who supported EOKA-B are that guilty also!



As for the settlers, it seems irrealistic to expect that people will just go after 30 years of building their lives somewhere. If one truly believes that, then I don't think one is really ready to find a real-world solution.



I strogly agree with you ! Your observation and thinking style is so realistic!Not like some others ... :roll:
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WHY DO WE HAVE TO BLAME GREEKS, TURKS and ... OURSELVES???

Postby Oneness » Fri May 14, 2004 3:44 am

Noone is talking about before 1974 and Greece Junta and EOKA!

Noone is asking why Turkey came to island! Junta and EOKA-B was doing massacre in Cyprus! They tried to clean Turkish Cypriots etnically from the island!

I don't approve what Turkey did after 1974! But also we can't forget before 1974 !

What sanction did the world applied to Greece for the violation of Guarantee Agreement?

On the other hand world didn't force Turkey after 1974 so much also...
Why world applied embargoes and pressure to Turkish Cypriots but not to Turkey directly?


I sympathise with your view Peace but ... must we always accept the carrot?!? Why judge a book by its cover? The cover says that ... in the 1960's extremist GCs and TCs terrorised communities, in 1974 was a coup by Greek junta and GC extremists and , in response, Turkey invaded and occupied.

America knew this version would be perpetuated by the international media. Is USA too powerful and haloed to take blame for anything?!? Pretty much so, judging by the int'l media and the way it rubs off on people. It is up to the Cypriot people to know better and not judge by the cover. Beyond the cover reads:

1920's Greek and Turkish Cypriots live peacefully together

1930'-1960 increasing frustration with British Colonial rule the seeds of intercommunal strife - much caused deliberately by Britsh "divide + rule"

1950's Cold War. Makarios makes contact with Soviet Union. USA makes initial contact with GC extremist thugs in Cyprus.

1960's Makarios sides with Soviet Union. USA support GC extremist thugs with money and weapons while at the same time supporting Turkish military. Intercommunal strife escalates in 1963.

1974 US backed Greek junta joins with US backed GC extremists to take Cyprus by force. US backed Turkey uses EXCUSE of Greek coup to invade part of Cyprus for "protection of TCs". Britain, Guarrantor of Cyprus and with sovereign British bases in Cyprus (as per 1960 agreement) , watches it happen, its bases hauntingly subdued.

1974-2004 Turkish "protection" of TC's shown by bring in Turkish colonists and ignoring all UN resolutions until 2004 thus TRNC unrecognised.

There is quite a simple equation for what happenned. 1963 could have happened in any country. All you need is:

Extremists + US money + US weapons + US license = violence

Indeed, US has done this in many countries, esp. the more vulnerable ones, small like Cyprus or poor like in Africa.

1974 is something Turkey and few others could do ...
Oppressive military regime + US money + US armaments + US license = violence

So Cyprus modern history is more about the machinations of USA, the Cypriots were just pawns. They do not need to blame each other. The USA, above all other, has been responsible for the disastrous modern history of Cyprus. It was a well orchestrated plan of some 15-20 years that lead to 1974. The USA got what it wanted from Turkey which is its subservience and US bases. The Cold War is over but Turkey is useful for different reasons now and it continues to support Turkey. So we cannot expect any favours. I am just saying what I believe is the truth.

Of course, I am not personal towards America or American people.
When I say "US" refer to the decision makers. Most Greek Cypriots now are opposed to compromise. It reminds me of the idealist days of enosis. Like it or not, the way forward was and remains a balance of "subservience" to USA and defence of national self interest.

WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY IS our better sense should have guided us point our fingers at the outside instead of at one another .... When the dust of the referendum has settled, hopefully, we will see this.
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