Cyprus-Forum.com

[Sotos]

So to take an extreme theortical single indivdual case, where the pre 74 owners land was not used in any way upto the point where they lost control of it and the emotional connection to it was negliable vs current usrs that for the last 35 years have invested in it emotionaly and fincially to a great degree, in a case such as this I think it would be right to conclude that the harm of compelling the current users to move is greater than that of compelling the pre 74 owner to accept compensation in either money or acceptable alternative land.

Is that single individual you? Like Piratis said if it would be right to conclude what you conclude then the ECHR will agree with you. If it was my land that you build on and used for 35 years profiting and becoming rich while I was living in some shitty refugee housing then I would sue your ass off and demand rent for those 35 years!

[Viewpoint]

Don't you feel ashamed to have elected a leader that lies in such a provocative manner?

To present the actual agreement made by the two communites post 74 under UN offices to allow anyone on either side who wanted to safely move to the other under UN supervision as the communities having made a population exchange agreement, is a cynical manipulation of reality designed to create a biased impression of the truth as possible about an actual reality.

Pretty much in the same way the claim below seeks to do the same about a different reality.

167.000 GC refugees forced out of north Cyprus at gun point, and 40.000 TCs who moved to the north in order to achieve the dream of partition they had since the 1950s.

Then there are the straight bald face lies not based on any reality at all, like TP's imfamous claim that no TC were killed between 63 and 74.

Both sides have and continue to seek to manipulate truth and reality to present their side as favourably as possible and the other as unfavourably as possible. At the indivdual level and at the highest political levels. This is unlikely to change. If we are ever going to get anywhere in discussions like these then in my opinion we have to stop playing this 'look how bad your side' game is , when in reality we have to know that ours are little different.

Yes the calim re population exchanges is outrageous but please lets not pretend that this is something only one side does.

Erolz do you deny that Taksim (partition) was since the 1950s (and remains until today) the desire of most TCs, and that they view anything else as being a compromise?

In the 1950s, even before the inter-communal conflict started, the TCs were demonstrating in the streets, with Turkish flags and maps showing a divided Cyprus, demanding partition. Do you deny this?

And nothing changed since then. "According to the poll, 80 per cent of Greek Cypriots want a unified state with a central government, while 71 per cent of Turkish Cypriots are in favour of two separate states with international recognition. "
http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=45090

So in what way you dispute what I said?

80% of GCs want a unified state so they can dominate the hole island and reduce to TCs to minority status.

71% of TCs want a 2 state solution becuase they do not want to just another minority in a Gc state run by GCs where they can be discriminted against.

You demanded partition since the 50s, long before the GCs even had the ability to discriminate against your minority. In fact the only discrimination up until that point came from you against us. For 3 plus centuries.

Therefore you can have as many lame excuses as you want as to why you wanted partition. The fact is that you did, and you continue to want partition.

So don't equate those 40.000 TCs that moved to the occupied areas in order to realize their dream of partition, with the 167.000 GCs which were forced at gun point to abandon their homes.

When did the enosis dream start?

[Viewpoint]

The whole point of democracy is to to give the individual the right to have their say.

It is not a question of voting in a particular way because you are a GC or a TC or a Wolf or a Lamb. This is largely dependant on the political parties that are established in any one country and in how those political parties are governed by law.

In the establishement of a state or country, political parties need to work under certain rules and conduct. It is this that will largely control how politics is run in any country. This is usually governed by a constitution. This would generally outlaw or marginalise certain extreme political groupings that could put public order into question.

In the case of Cyprus it would be quite feasible to have a constitution which would ensure that poltical parties would not be established based on racial or ethnic lines and to ensure that each party has fair representation of all communities on the island. In this way it is possible for all ethnic groups to have representation and would thus free up the idividual from the fear of being dominated by either one community or the other.

Under the current proposals for a solution, the TC fears mean that as a community, they wish to obtain a disproportionate say in the running of the country. On the flip side, the GC fear of being dominated by Turkey and TC's means that they want a state where they TC's have a share of power that is proportionate to their size.

This in itself has led to the forced bizonal aspet of the problem, which as we are now seeing, is unravelling after the ECJ ruling re the Orams, which has solidified the rights of property ownership in Cyprus.

I agree with a lot of what is being said but this is not currently possible as people are conditioned on both sides of the divide to vote along ethnic lines, we just do not have that maturity.

[Viewpoint]

VP,did you every read Alex Lordos survey at all,that you say most t/c think like you?

No I have not.

[Viewpoint]

71% of TCs want a 2 state solution becuase they do not want to just another minority in a Gc state run by GCs where they can be discriminted against.

So the way not to be a minority is to kill and ethnically cleanse the majority? This is how a criminal like you thinks! The easiest way not to be a minority in Cyprus is if you didn't keep invading us and bringing your Settlers on our island!

Its called survival against a hostile GC majority hell bent on making Cyprus Greece.

[Piratis]

Don't you feel ashamed to have elected a leader that lies in such a provocative manner?

To present the actual agreement made by the two communites post 74 under UN offices to allow anyone on either side who wanted to safely move to the other under UN supervision as the communities having made a population exchange agreement, is a cynical manipulation of reality designed to create a biased impression of the truth as possible about an actual reality.

Pretty much in the same way the claim below seeks to do the same about a different reality.

167.000 GC refugees forced out of north Cyprus at gun point, and 40.000 TCs who moved to the north in order to achieve the dream of partition they had since the 1950s.

Then there are the straight bald face lies not based on any reality at all, like TP's imfamous claim that no TC were killed between 63 and 74.

Both sides have and continue to seek to manipulate truth and reality to present their side as favourably as possible and the other as unfavourably as possible. At the indivdual level and at the highest political levels. This is unlikely to change. If we are ever going to get anywhere in discussions like these then in my opinion we have to stop playing this 'look how bad your side' game is , when in reality we have to know that ours are little different.

Yes the calim re population exchanges is outrageous but please lets not pretend that this is something only one side does.

Erolz do you deny that Taksim (partition) was since the 1950s (and remains until today) the desire of most TCs, and that they view anything else as being a compromise?

In the 1950s, even before the inter-communal conflict started, the TCs were demonstrating in the streets, with Turkish flags and maps showing a divided Cyprus, demanding partition. Do you deny this?

And nothing changed since then. "According to the poll, 80 per cent of Greek Cypriots want a unified state with a central government, while 71 per cent of Turkish Cypriots are in favour of two separate states with international recognition. "
http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=45090

So in what way you dispute what I said?

80% of GCs want a unified state so they can dominate the hole island and reduce to TCs to minority status.

71% of TCs want a 2 state solution becuase they do not want to just another minority in a Gc state run by GCs where they can be discriminted against.

You demanded partition since the 50s, long before the GCs even had the ability to discriminate against your minority. In fact the only discrimination up until that point came from you against us. For 3 plus centuries.

Therefore you can have as many lame excuses as you want as to why you wanted partition. The fact is that you did, and you continue to want partition.

So don't equate those 40.000 TCs that moved to the occupied areas in order to realize their dream of partition, with the 167.000 GCs which were forced at gun point to abandon their homes.

When did the enosis dream start?

On July 9 1821

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.

Any other question?

[Viewpoint]

Don't you feel ashamed to have elected a leader that lies in such a provocative manner?

To present the actual agreement made by the two communites post 74 under UN offices to allow anyone on either side who wanted to safely move to the other under UN supervision as the communities having made a population exchange agreement, is a cynical manipulation of reality designed to create a biased impression of the truth as possible about an actual reality.

Pretty much in the same way the claim below seeks to do the same about a different reality.

167.000 GC refugees forced out of north Cyprus at gun point, and 40.000 TCs who moved to the north in order to achieve the dream of partition they had since the 1950s.

Then there are the straight bald face lies not based on any reality at all, like TP's imfamous claim that no TC were killed between 63 and 74.

Both sides have and continue to seek to manipulate truth and reality to present their side as favourably as possible and the other as unfavourably as possible. At the indivdual level and at the highest political levels. This is unlikely to change. If we are ever going to get anywhere in discussions like these then in my opinion we have to stop playing this 'look how bad your side' game is , when in reality we have to know that ours are little different.

Yes the calim re population exchanges is outrageous but please lets not pretend that this is something only one side does.

Erolz do you deny that Taksim (partition) was since the 1950s (and remains until today) the desire of most TCs, and that they view anything else as being a compromise?

In the 1950s, even before the inter-communal conflict started, the TCs were demonstrating in the streets, with Turkish flags and maps showing a divided Cyprus, demanding partition. Do you deny this?

And nothing changed since then. "According to the poll, 80 per cent of Greek Cypriots want a unified state with a central government, while 71 per cent of Turkish Cypriots are in favour of two separate states with international recognition. "
http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=45090

So in what way you dispute what I said?

80% of GCs want a unified state so they can dominate the hole island and reduce to TCs to minority status.

71% of TCs want a 2 state solution becuase they do not want to just another minority in a Gc state run by GCs where they can be discriminted against.

Do you have any official statistics that show 71 % of TC's want a two state solution? I think that number is greatly reduced if we take the settlers out of the equation. As far as GCs are concerned, they want (more than 80 percent) a just unified state where they are able to reside, work, invest in any part of this island...it has nothing to do with domination. GC's will never sign away or accept this defacto division. We do not accept it.

Ask Piratis he quoted this figure.

[Lit]

71% of TCs want a 2 state solution becuase they do not want to just another minority in a Gc state run by GCs where they can be discriminted against.

So the way not to be a minority is to kill and ethnically cleanse the majority? This is how a criminal like you thinks! The easiest way not to be a minority in Cyprus is if you didn't keep invading us and bringing your Settlers on our island!

Its called survival against a hostile GC majority hell bent on making Cyprus Greece.

"Cyprus is valuable as a right arm for a country interested in its own defence of for its own expansionist aims if it harbours such aims...
Many states to a certain extent because it suits their interests, want to see the Cyprus problem as our desire to protect the Turkish community on the island, whereas the actual problem is the security of 45 million Turks in the motherland together with the Turks in the island and the maintenance of the balance in the Middle East."
Turan Gunes, Minster of Foreign Affairs of Turkey at the time of the invasion of Cyprus. 'Hurriyet', (Turkish newspaper), 1980

[Piratis]

71% of TCs want a 2 state solution becuase they do not want to just another minority in a Gc state run by GCs where they can be discriminted against.

So the way not to be a minority is to kill and ethnically cleanse the majority? This is how a criminal like you thinks! The easiest way not to be a minority in Cyprus is if you didn't keep invading us and bringing your Settlers on our island!

Its called survival against a hostile GC majority hell bent on making Cyprus Greece.

Again VP, when you started your demands for partition in the 50s the only hostility up until that point, 300 years of it, were coming from you against us.

Apparently it was fine for you to make Cyprus part of your empire against the will of the Cypriot people, but you did not recognize the right of the Cypriot people to belong where they democratically choose.

[boulio]

No I have not.

YOU should the link is a couple of pages back,it was published in 2005 but is very interesting.