Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

No, I don’t think you want to screw up the future intentionally, but Oneness said something that I believe is true in the most part for many TC:

Or do you want the benefits of recognition as well as the benefits of joining the EU as well as alignment with Turkey ... and who cares if an Annan Plan breaks up after a few years because you will have recognition, you will have the EU and you more interested in relations with Turkey than GC's?

The above seems to be true in the sense that TC main concerns are 1)international recognition (as a separate state, or very autonomous component state), 2)joining the EU, 3)Economic development (as a result of 1 and 2). This can explain why TC are not interested very much in unity and the viability and functionality of the central state. They believe that if everything brakes up after a few years, it will brake up in a smooth way, and in the end they will still have what they wanted anyways.

We already have 1,2 and 3, and the reasons we want a solution (human rights, return of refugees/property, reunify Cyprus) seems not to interest TC very much. They probably think that our interests/future is not a common one and therefore they are not interested if GC future is screwed up again since they believe this will not affect them.

It is true that selective amnesia exists, on both sides. I already recognized as true many of the thinks that you said happened between 63-74. But you have to admit that while many of those things truly happened (and we of course regret about them and condemn them), they are also emphasized and magnified in order to excuse things that can not be excused. We don’t need to have distant memories to see this. We can see from today that sporadic events such as a GC employee giving problems to a TC passenger in an airport are magnified and generalized and are used in a propaganda that tries to pass the message that “GC are bad, and they don’t like us”.

How do you suggest we 'fix' what UNFICYP couldn't fix 30 years ago. I'm not sure the issue is relevant. Are there any military forces from Greece in RoC today, how many? Both Turkey and Greece seem to have a more mature attitude toeach other, at least there doesn't seem to be the same level of tension.

If all Cypriots are disarmed then a strong UN power could keep order in case a small group of fanatics tried to screw up everything again. Or do you think Turkey or Greece intervening in Cyprus would be a better way to stop such groups? I don’t think so. Such interventions would make things way worst.
A couple of thousands of Greek forces exist, but their presence is more symbolic than anything else.

[PEACE]

The above seems to be true in the sense that TC main concerns are 1)international recognition (as a separate state, or very autonomous component state), 2)joining the EU, 3)Economic development (as a result of 1 and 2). This can explain why TC are not interested very much in unity and the viability and functionality of the central state. They believe that if everything brakes up after a few years, it will brake up in a smooth way, and in the end they will still have what they wanted anyways.

These are impossible ! Annan Plan prohibited this!
There can't be seperation!
If someone tries to make seperation or annexation this will be unlawful to Annan Plan.So world will apply embargoes etc. like they do to TRNC today! There won't be recognition etc.

On the other hand my reply to poll is NO.
Honestly i don't trust UN or EU army! They will only watch the war if there will! So, i agree with mehmet on this subject.We can remember UN army during 1963-1974 period!

I haven't got a suggestion about army subject but Annan Plan's solution for armies is the best i can think!

650 Turkish soldiers and 950 Greek soldiers!EU army can also can work in Cyprus also or there can be an army that will form from only cypriots also!

[Piratis]

These are impossible ! Annan Plan prohibited this!

And since when you obey the law and respect international agreements?
The law prohibited such things in Chehoslovakia and Yugoslavia also. We all saw what happened, and I am sure TC once they got the recognition and the entry to the EU they wouldn't mind if what happened in Chehoslovakia would happen in Cyprus also. Would you mind?

[PEACE]

These are impossible ! Annan Plan prohibited this!

And since when you obey the law and respect international agreements?
The law prohibited such things in Chehoslovakia and Yugoslavia also. We all saw what happened, and I am sure TC once they got the recognition and the entry to the EU they wouldn't mind if what happened in Chehoslovakia would happen in Cyprus also. Would you mind?

Briefly you don't trust us ! This means even we find a perfect solution for both sides you won't beleive that solution!May be you'll say No in that time even!

If one of the sides of an agreement violates it don't forget world applies sanctions and punihment!

If what you said is true than now TRNC will be a recognized goverment!

[Piratis]

What I don't trust is that what you want is to reunify Cyprus and that you care about our human rights. Isn't it true that TC want a solution for 1)Recognition of their independent entity, 2) EU entry, 3) Economic development - and they don't actually care about reunifying Cyprus? (reunification, which should be as fake as possible (like the Annan plan) is only the means to achieve the above 3 goals, and not a real aim for you)

We should make sure that if the solution fails, it fails for both of us (and as we saw "failure" means different things for each side). This means that if it fails, not only you don't get recognition, but you don't get EU entry and financial support either. And this should be done not just on paper, but in practice. E.g: you need 20 years to give as X (return of refugees, return of land, removal of Turkish troops etc)? Then it should take 20 years for you to get y also(full EU entry, recognition of component state, full financial support).
This is the only way that you will have a motive to keep your promises.

[mehmet]

Or do you want the benefits of recognition as well as the benefits of joining the EU as well as alignment with Turkey ... and who cares if an Annan Plan breaks up after a few years because you will have recognition, you will have the EU and you more interested in relations with Turkey than GC's?

It is true that selective amnesia exists, on both sides. I already recognized as true many of the thinks that you said happened between 63-74. But you have to admit that while many of those things truly happened (and we of course regret about them and condemn them), they are also emphasized and magnified in order to excuse things that can not be excused. We don’t need to have distant memories to see this. We can see from today that sporadic events such as a GC employee giving problems to a TC passenger in an airport are magnified and generalized and are used in a propaganda that tries to pass the message that “GC are bad, and they don’t like us”.

How do you suggest we 'fix' what UNFICYP couldn't fix 30 years ago. I'm not sure the issue is relevant. Are there any military forces from Greece in RoC today, how many? Both Turkey and Greece seem to have a more mature attitude toeach other, at least there doesn't seem to be the same level of tension.

If all Cypriots are disarmed then a strong UN power could keep order in case a small group of fanatics tried to screw up everything again. Or do you think Turkey or Greece intervening in Cyprus would be a better way to stop such groups? I don’t think so. Such interventions would make things way worst.
A couple of thousands of Greek forces exist, but their presence is more symbolic than anything else.[/quote]

Personally, speaking from the UK my main concern is that I could visit the island my family are from without it resembling a large army camp. Next I would like for the little of my family that has remained in Cyprus to have the same chances and opportunities I take for granted here in UK. The issue of EU benefits to me are not a major concern although I believe they would offer the guarantee to Turkish Cypriots that their human rights wont be disrespected insofar as Cyprus would be subject to European Courts. There are some disadvantages to EU, such as loss of sovereignty in some respects but at this time a million people on a small island can't achieve much when the world is globalising to the extent that it is.

In respect of propoganda you mentioned, it's not so much the incidents themselves that concern me but the response of society to them. There appears to be too much defennsiveness. We should be braver to admit faults in our society rather than try to deny they are a problem or avoid facing up to them. When the extreme right wing in UK have some success at the election the whole of the political establishment take responsibility for confronting the problem. You would think to read the papers we were talking about a major political threat rather than a small group that gained some success when most people couldn't be bothered to vote.

As for strong UN, will RoC permit and agree to this? When UN patrol border between two states that is relatively easy to keep peace, I say relatively.

What is the political justification for a couple of thousand Greek soldiers being in Cyprus when the RoC constitution limited numbers to 950 (not that there were so few anyway)?

[metecyp]

We should make sure that if the solution fails, it fails for both of us (and as we saw "failure" means different things for each side). T

Are you sure that you mean this? I simply cannot understand how you can ask for assurance for a solution to fail for BOTH of us when you're the one who benefitted from the failure of Republic of Cyprus for 40 years now!! Am I wrong? Republic of Cyprus failed in 1963, and it failed for TCs, not for GCs. As you said, you have international recognition, economy, EU, etc. We should be the ones to demand this, not you , after you used Republic of Cyprus as Hellenic Republic all these years. I knew that you were kind of ignorant, but I didn't know it was this much.

[Piratis]

How did we benefited? Are you kidding me? We lost 1/3 of the ground (from a minority of 18%), more than 50% of beaches(the best ones) and resources, we had 200.000 refugees to take care of. We had extreme loses. And you come here to tell me that we benefited????? Give me a brake.

If the invasion didn't happen we would be 10 years ahead now. That we did good even after the invasion just shows that we could do a lot better without it! This should be obvious to everybody (except you?).

The situation the last 30 years benefited nobody in Cyprus (it benefited only some outsiders). If you failed, (and you keep fail) to recognize this it is very unfortunate.

[metecyp]

How did we benefited? Are you kidding me? We lost 1/3 of the ground (from a minority of 18%), more than 50% of beaches(the best ones) and resources, we had 200.000 refugees to take care of. We had extreme loses. And you come here to tell me that we benefited????? Give me a brake.

Read my post again. I said you benefitted from the FAILURE of Republic of Cyprus. Did I say anything about you benefiting from the "Turkish invasion"? Can you deny that you did not benefit from the failture of the Republic of Cyprus? Isn't it much better to have Republic of Cyprus just for GCs? Isn't it nice to represent the whole Cyprus internationally and to be recognized as the sole representor of Cyprus? Isn't it nice to decide anything you want without bothering to ask to TCs? Isn't this why some GCs don't even want to give TCs back their rights in RC since they benefit from the current situation so much that they don't want to give up? And now you're telling me that failure of Republic of Cyprus did not benefit your community?? Who did it benefit than? Did it benefit TCs living isolated all these years? You give me a break!!

Why do you jump to the invasion automatically? Actually I know why. According to you, Cyprus problem is an issue of invasion and occupation. It never crosses your mind to think about why the invasion happenned. Unfortunately, I won't go in that direction simply because the invasion is not the issue here. The issue is that we agreed on a common structure (RC) and it broke down in 1963 and this mainly benefitted GCs, and since 1963, TCs lost greatly living isolated from the world.

So it should be TCs' concern to make sure that if the solution fails, it fails for both of the communirities, not yours because you did not suffer from the failure of the Republic of Cyprus.

[Piratis]

The point here is that if a solution based on Annan plan fails it will fail only for GC and not for TC. You disagree?

It is crazy to say that GCs benefited from any failure. Everything would be much better for all of us if the initial agreements where better so they wouldn't fail. This is why we learn from the past and we want any new solution to be viable so it will not fail again.