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Can we improve on the Amman plan?

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Postby gabaston » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:01 am

in addition to previous post.

personally i would truly welcome gc residential communities in the north.
Is there a more life enriching experience than the sharing of differing lifestyles?
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Postby Alexandros Lordos » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:02 am

gabaston wrote:alex

i respect your concerns on this topic, and without trying to dodge the question i really am not too up on the facts and figures of cyprus. There just seems to be an excess of contradictory sources. That the sentiment of some goodwill still exists on which to create a more trusting future for our children is good enough for me.

i'll leave these types of facts n figures to be presented for approval.

oi did you censor that?.........................................ok fair enough at least you censored the pair of us. no complaints. apology accepted.

OK, just to close the topic for the night, I'll just say that even with the 33% limit to citizenship in the Annan Plan (had it applied immediately), any refugee who wanted to would have been able to return. On the score of refugee rights, I would have been happy to accept that limit. There are other aspects to having a permanent limit which might be controversial for some, for instance the fact that the solution would then be in dissonance with the European Acquis, but the right of return itself would have been satisfactorily safeguarded.

Have a very good night ...
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Hellenix explained

Postby maimou » Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:03 am


Thanks for the feedback.

1. I read the British language article you mentioned and found it very interesting. I would ask the journalist who wrote it the following question...

Q. If you were a foreign business man/woman who was visiting two competing Cypriot factories would you buy from the factory with the best engineering or would you buy from the factory whose manager could speak the foreigner's language (assuming that the foreigner and the Cypriot could both speak English and all other things such as product price were equal)?

I know that I've loaded the question to suit my point, but I think learning too many languages can actually damage a students committment to other areas (I accept that some students are gifted and can learn many languages easily, but they are the exception rather than the rule).

Realistically under the Hellenix plan, even though public schools would not teach Greek or Turkish, we all know that most parents would have their children taught Greek or Turkish privately. In other words, most children in Cyprus would learn at least 2 languages at a formal level.

English would unite the island, but private learning of their ethnic tongue will maintain a link to a person's roots.

I think that if Cypriots want to learn a 3rd language that's fine, but IMO they would be better off learning a more widely spoken EU language such as Spanish, French or German - or more usefully, develop their English speaking skills to a higher level.

Better to speak two languages well than to speak three languages poorly.
The higher the quality of English speaking in Cyprus, the more foreign university students will choose to study in Cyprus.

Cyprus is well positioned with its warm climate to attract more and more students from Scandanavia, Germany, UK etc - especially if the English spoken in Cyprus is developed to a very high level. University education is a massive business which could dramatically grow in Cyprus if English is made the official language.

2. You are right. Forcing Turkish settlers to choose Cypriot or Turkish citizenship is a harder choice than it would be for Greeks because both Greece and Cyprus are in the EU.

This is why the Hellenix plan does not ask Turkish settlers to make this choice. Turkish settlers are human beings and have the right to feel safe. If things go poorly in Cyprus, they should have the option to return to Turkey if they wish. Cyprus has the potential to become the showcase country for human rights. It should become the example for Israel/Palestine and for Kashmere.

As you know ethnic Greeks are extremely proud of their heritage (and rightly so, Greek history is truly remarkable). They are most likely to reject any plan to give up their Greek citizenship.

If we allow Cypriot citizens to maintain their dual citizenship it will make brokering a fair deal easier. Over many years under the Hellenix plan, Cypriot patriotism will begin to prevail over ethnic differences. Less and less importance will be placed on dual citizenship. Cypriots will favour Cypriot citizenship over Greek or Turkish citizenship.

3. I had considered adding to the Hellenix plan the option for ethnic Turks to establish a temporary committee which would have the power to deport Turkish settlers who they considered unsuitable for the united Cyprus.

I resisted this because I was afraid it would be subject to corruption and that native ethnic Turks may be tempted to charge Turkish settlers baksheesh in order to stay.

Do you know if there is substantial tension or divisions between ethnic Turks north of the Green Line?
Do ethnic Turks want the power to deport recent Turkish settlers?
Would such powers to deport be corrupted?
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Postby maimou » Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:06 am

Bananiot wrote:This proposed plan has zero chances of being supported by any community. One could mention numerous reasons as to why but I feel it will be a waste of time and energy to deal with its shortcomings.


Frankly, I expected many ethnic Greeks and Turks to disagree with the Hellenix plan. It demands compromise on key issues by both sides - and some understanding of sociology.

This said, I think it is better balanced than many other proposals - especially the Annan plan.

The Annan plan is so unbalanced that it makes the ethnic Turks who support it look like sleezy carpet-sellers and the ethnic Greeks who support it look like foolish door-mats.

Both the ethnic Greeks and Turks deserve better than this.

Just one problem with the Annan plan is that it promotes a system in which the minority of the people have a political vote worth far more than their numbers justify. What's worse is that this injustice is entrenched in the system. In other words, permanent injustice, resentment and hostility by the majority towards the minority.

Does anyone truly believe this is the answer?

The Hellenix system accepts that initially the ethnic Turks must be safeguarded from political exploitation by the Senate, but it also includes a mechanism to shift to a proper democracy at a later date when the ethnic Greeks have earned the trust of the ethnic Turks.

I don't think any of us have the right to make a general statement that a plan is unacceptable without being a little more specific.

Give me one or two good reasons to change the Hellenix terms, and I assure you, I will. I am happy to open my eyes to any mistake I have made, but pointless generalizations are not helpful.
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Postby Agios Amvrosios » Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:21 am

The plan is ,was and will remain sham! it was designed to be overwhelmingly rejected! No body is stupid enough to believe that the Annan plan in any of its monstrous incarnations would be successful at a referendum.

How can there be two separate referenda?- There should only be a single referendum.

A fairness demands a single referendum on a Unitary state with a democratic constitution. Any shams like "bizonal crap" and legitimized ethnic cleansing are doomed to fail at referendum.
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Postby erolz » Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:53 am

AA wrote:How can there be two separate referenda?- There should only be a single referendum.

Meaing the decision should be effectivelt decided by GC alone.

AA wrote:A fairness demands a single referendum on a Unitary state with a democratic constitution.

Fairness demands that GC alone should effectivelt decide the fate of TC as well as GC? Your democratic consitition gives the TC community a right to an equal say on such decisions. However you do not wish to give TC this right regardless of your own consistituion.
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