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Mercury poisoning- toxicity

Feel free to talk about anything that you want.

Postby devil » Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:41 am

michalis5354 wrote:Devil I know this is a controversial issue that needs further examination and opinions differ on that matter.

Dentists have an enormous armoury of other toxic substances used in the practice of their art.


Like what? What kind of substances can they use?


The fact that I investigate this issue more and more is because since I visited my dentist last month I have faced different symptoms which are mostly matched to toxicity.


I don't wish to enumerate the toxins because you probably would not understand the implications and you would imagine they had all been used on you, which would be unlikely.

As for your "different symptoms ... matched to toxicity", I seriously suggest that these
a) may not have any bearing whatsoever to the dentistry (you may have picked a bug up in your dinner)
b) symptoms of acute toxicity usually pass in 24 to 48 hours
c) symptoms of chronic toxicity take many weeks, months or years to manifest themselves
d) the quantities of toxic materials used in the treatment of one tooth are so minute that it would be extremely unlikely that accidental ingestion would have no effect
e) dentists are aware of any problems and use the suction to vacuum away any residues, followed by a rinse where appropriate
f) if there is a cause and effect relationship, it is almost certainly psychosomatic
g) I cannot think of any symptom of poisoning of any nature that is uniquely matched to a toxin and never to other, more likely, causes
h) no dentist wants to lose his patient and future income.

In other words, I don't believe that your dentist has poisoned you. That having been said, it is not impossible that a microbial infection could result from dental treatment, as is possible with any surgery, but this is nothing to do with toxins as used in dentistry. If you insist along these lines, I suggest you consult a doctor trained in toxicology (e.g., an industrial hygienist) for further advice. In the meantime, I respectfully suggest that you may wish to consider it unwise to propagate opinions that have a strong likelihood of being erroneous and unscientific.
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Amalgam is not safe

Postby cosmo1969 » Thu Aug 04, 2005 10:06 pm

Somehow my personal reply from you got lost in my mailbox, so I decided to post this so everyone can read it.

I have more than a passing knowledge of both toxicology and epidemiology, having been involved in industrial health and safety, so I can speak with a certain amount of authority.

First of all, mercury is NOT toxic. You could swallow several grams of it and it would pass through the body unaltered and with no toxic effects. What IS toxic are some compounds of mercury, notably some organic compounds, known as organometallics. These are a cumulative CNS toxin. Some mercuric halides are also equally toxic, especially HgCl2.

This is taken from the http://www.toxicteeth.net/merctoxprofile.cfm

TOXICOLOGICAL PROFILE FOR MERCURY (UPDATE)
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES
PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICE
AGENCY FOR TOXIC SUBSTANCES AND DISEASE REGISTRY
MARCH 1999

EXCERPTS REGARDING THE HEALTH HAZARDS OF MERCURY AMALGAM FILLINGS:

Mercury is mined as cinnabar ore, which contains mercuric sulfide. Silver-colored dental fillings typically contain about 50% metallic mercury. These uses may pose a health risk from exposure to mercury both for the user and for other whom may be exposed to mercury vapors in contaminated air.

A potential source of exposure to metallic mercury for the general population is mercury released form dental amalgam fillings. The amalgam used in silver-colored dental fillings contains approximately 50% metallic mercury, 35% silver, 9% tin, 6% copper, and trace amounts of zinc. Very small amounts are slowly released from the surface of the filling due to corrosion or chewing or grinding motions. Part of the mercury at the surface of the filling may enter the air as mercury vapor or be dissolved in the saliva. The total amount of mercury released from dental amalgam depends upon the total number of fillings and surface of each filling. Estimates of the amount of mercury released from dental amalgams range from 3 to 17 micrograms per day (hg/day). The mercury from dental amalgam may contribute from 0 to more than 75% of your total daily mercury exposure. Sensitive populations may include pregnant women; children under the age of 6 (especially up to the age of 3), people with impaired kidney function, and people with hypersensitive immune responses to metals.

Mercury amalgams used for dental obturations are usually trinary alloys (sometimes ternary) and the mercury forms an intermetallic compound with the silver. The important point is that there is no free mercury in the alloy: it is all bound up with the silver in a distinctive eutectic phase which is formed in the first hours after mixing the components. This intermetallic compound has been shown to be virtually non-toxic under normal conditions found in the mouth, because the phase is non-reversible until it reaches liquidus (the temperature at which the phase reaches melting point, over 200°C). As neither silver nor mercury is amphoteric (ie, reacts with both acids and bases), the chances of any chemical decomposition in the pH range of saliva are very remote, indeed, unless you drink large quantities of, say, hydrochloric acid, in which case any oxidation of the amalgam surface could conceivably minute quantities of mercurous chloride or calomel, which is less toxic than mercuric chloride.

Seen from the above mercury it is obvious that amalgam is not a stable compound in your mouth "estimates of the amount of mercury released from dental amalgams range from 3 to 17 micrograms per day (hg/day)".

Toxicology is not an exact science, because different animals and even individuals react differently to toxins. Toxicologists therefore always err on the safe side, usually by decreeing a safe dose as a factor of one-tenth of the lowest dose known to have any toxic effect (sometimes one-third, in the case of substances with a long known history of the toxicology and epidemiology).


This is taken from http://www.toxicteeth.net/mercuryFillings.cfm

Mercury in dental-filling materials
–– an updated risk analysis in environmental medical terms

Professor Emeritus Maths Berlin

An overview of scientific literature published in 1997–2002 and current knowledge

Mercury is a potent toxin that affects the basic functions of the cell by bonding strongly with sulfhydryl and selenohydryl groups on albumen molecules in cell membranes, receptors and intracellular signal links, and by modifying the tertiary structure.

Seen from the above there is no doubt that mercury is a toxin no matter what the amount is, therefore there is no safe limit if you read the updated risk analysis from Maths Berlin.


It is also important to distinguish between acute, sub-chronic and chronic toxicity. Acute toxicity is the effect of a single exposure and is usually defined as LD50 (the lethal dose which will kill 50% of the subjects within 24 or 48 hours). This is obviously irrelevant to this discussion, as it implies very large doses. Chronic toxicity is the effect of extremely small doses over long periods of time, with cumulative toxins. The classic example is typified in the phrase, mad as a hatter. Hatters dressed beaver skins for top hats with mercury. As it has a vapour pressure at room temperature, they inhaled minute quantities of mercury vapour into the lungs for many years. Some of this reacted with the alveolar mucus and entered the blood stream and caused cumulative degeneration of parts of the brain. (To allay any arguments the mercury-silver intermetallic has zero vapour pressure at body temperature). Substances which cause cumulative degeneration of any tissue have a safe dosage based on (usually) the ponderal parts-per-million (ppm) or mg/m3 or µg/l, depending on the method of entry into the body.

To get to the point: there is quasi-zero risk of mercury poisoning from having amalgam fillings. There would be a risk of acute poisoning at the time of obturing the cavity, before the intermetallic phase is formed, but the quantities are too small for this risk to be serious and the metabolic disintegration of most of any ingested mercury would eliminate it in 24 hours through the faeces. Equally, there may be a minute acute risk if an existing filling is ground away, due to the high temperatures locally generated (for this reason, it is probably a mistake to remove existing fillings, certainly a plurality of them).

I would like to refer to http://www.iaomt.com/articledetails.cfm?artid=99.

In the late 1980's an experiment with sheep's and later on also monkeys where done. The physicians put radioactive mercury into the amalgam compound and used this as a filling in the sheep's and monkeys. Read the whole paper and get scared. This is really true and the really scaring thing is that the dentist organisation had/has the power to state this as bogus science and totally overrule the evident truth about the dangers of amalgam. When you say that the body easily eliminates all the mercury from the body I would say that no one, least of all the dentists, knows if the mercury is excreted from the body.

(To allay any arguments the mercury-silver intermetallic has zero vapour pressure at body temperature).
This cannot be true if it releases 3 - 17 ug/day of mercury into the air you breath. As the U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES
PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICE states.


Modern fillings, based on UV-activated polymers are probably less toxic than mercury amalgams and are therefore preferable, but these have been developed only in the past couple of decades. There is therefore little reason for dentists to use mercury amalgams now, except in a few specific cases, where the synthetic fillings cannot hold mechanically.

The reason that mercury amalgam fillings are being actively discouraged or even banned now has nothing to do with patient safety. It is because the mixing process does release small amounts of mercury vapour which is cumulatively inhaled by the dentist and his staff: THEY are the ones at risk.

No, the primary reason is, that they know that they have made a major mistake by putting this toxic substance into peoples mouths making a large group chronically ill. Hopefully they will have to answer to all those who are daily being exposed and influenced by the amalgam.


Like in many cases, a little learning is a dangerous thing and there are a minority of cranks who believe that the very word mercury means toxics, without any scientific knowledge whatsoever. These guys, often ecopoliticians, cause much economic harm by their rants, concerning many more substances than just mercury. Ignore them.

By using technical expression you intimidate people who knows better and convinces those who does not know anything about this subject even though most of what you write is wrong. I don't know your reason for your interest in this matter, but I have my ideas. If you really want to know the truth about amalgam try to look into these links.

http://www.toxicteeth.org/mercuryFillings.cfm

http://www.iaomt.com/

http://www.melisa.org/

These homepages are the most serious information if you want get some knowledge on the amalgamissue.
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Postby devil » Fri Aug 05, 2005 1:19 pm

There is impartial science and there are ecopolitical organisations that latch onto buzzwords, like mercury, exaggerating facts out of all proportion in order to scare people out of their wits. Ask Dr Huggins whether he makes more money out of dentistry or from running Consumers for Dental Choice and his associated interests.

My response is without any vested interest and is a scientifically reasoned one to counter alarmist interests. That having been said, I agree that, now we have alternatives that are better for most cases, then amalgam should be reserved for the very few cases where there is no viable alternative. My dentist says that he still uses amalgam for about 1 in 500 fillings, because his long experience with it and the alternatives dictate when a non-amalgam filling will fail. He refuses to remove sound amalgam fillings. I maintain there is more risk in deliberately replacing a sound amalgam filling than in keeping it in place until it fails, because the local heat generated when drilling it out can separate the eutectic phase and release mercury vapour which can react in the fluids in the alveoli. The quantity of mercury vapour formed during this heating process is much higher than during the filling process because the vapour pressure of mercury at room temperature is very low.

Incidentally, some of the anti-mercury activists cite the damage to the environment caused by mercury vapour being released during cremation. This is absolutely ridiculous, because the crematorium staff remove all metal parts from the bodies before they are fired. They have a strong sideline perk selling the recovered fillings, as well as gold teeth, rings, titanium screws, pacemakers, hip replacements and so on. Can you imagine the reaction of relatives if they found lumps of metal in the ashes? Particularly if there were no ashes because a pacemaker exploded (as they would, if not removed).
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The amalgam issue

Postby cosmo1969 » Sat Aug 06, 2005 10:27 pm

I'm not trying to scare anybody, I'm only trying to elucidate the truth, so those who could be affected on different levels by their fillings - and as I previously wrote up till 5% (Maths Berlin) or maybe more of the population (my own guess)- has a chance to get well, nothing else. I have no economic interest in this subject so my only interests in this subject is a basic concern to the public health and also a wish to give a more precise picture of what is going on in all this spin where strong organisations like the ADA (American Dentist Association) constantly suppresses the truth.

You seem to keep repeating yourself and you never give any hard evidence whatsoever to clear off the accusations of the toxicity of amalgam. If a person has a suspicion that his/her amalgam fillings could cause her health problems and for this reason wants to remove the fillings, there are safe methods used by the amalgam-free dentists which minimises the release of mercury vapour, keeping the risk low when they drill out the amalgam http://www.iaomt.com/documents/Safe%20R ... lings1.pdf. To my knowledge it should be a safe way to discard the amalgam knowing that it has been used for at least 15 years in some dentist offices http://www.lichtenberg.dk/ with a positive outcome. I think anyone who is made chronically ill by their fillings would do almost anything to be cured by removing the fillings, and knowing that a secure method of removing them exist, the solution seem obvious. You should try and read the reports from the melisa organisation http://www.melisa.org where they use a well documented method to test blood to to see if a person is allergic to the amalgam - melisatest scans many metals not just mercury - giving a clear indication of what could be the reason for his/hers sufferings. The number of people who get well after the removal are striking. In my mind there is no doubt, mercury in your body is really harmful and causes much damages to many people and a place to start looking is in the mouth.

The major problem, in this big mess, is diagnosing for mercury toxicity. the list of symptoms are very long and ranges from pathological to psychological problems and it is no wonder that the physicians are not able to make a proper diagnose. As mentioned it is often mistaken as a mental problem where the patient maybe ending up being prescribed a useless drug.

Mercury has a strong affinity to SH groups which is a vital atomic group - the main target of ionised mercury Hg++ - in proteins, making the protein useless and causing vital harm to the function of the cell. The mercury can easily reach any place in the body by the bloodstream, targeting any organ, they are all at risk (read the sheep/monkey experiment on http://www.iaomt.com/documents/The%20Sc ... malgam.pdf). This is the direct toxic problem the other one is, as mentioned above read www.melisa.org) the allergy issue where your immune system (HPA) reacts by being up regulated in a constant defence mode as long as your body is being filled up with mercury from the fillings.

The main contributing factor to mercury in the human body is amalgam, states the WHO (world health organisation), but nonetheless seen from a general health perspective there is no doubt that we should do all we can to minimise the release of harmful elements into the nature where it can cause harm including the crematoriums.

"Can you imagine the reaction of relatives if they found lumps of metal in the ashes? Particularly if there were no ashes because a pacemaker exploded (as they would, if not removed)."

funny argument.

Many metals vaporises at the temperatures in the oven - above 1000 C - so I don't think there will be much left other than ashes from the bones. In Denmark they have suggested to put filters on the chimneys of the crematoriums to remove the mercury, so apparently they do not remove the dental filings before cremations. I have no idea what they do in other countries but why should it be much different? Let's do it the easy and least cost full way.

I'm not a chemist nor a physician, all the knowledge I have gained is through the sites that I previously referred to, but just in case.

www.melisa.org
www.iaomt.com/
www.toxicteeth.org

Mr. Huggins seems to be making a living but if people gets the proper infomation through his books it's all right by me.

Mr. Devil sounds like a well chosen name.
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Postby devil » Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:47 am

Believe the cranks and equally cranky NGOs out to make money from propagating fear to the gullible. I prefer science. I rest my case
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Postby cosmo1969 » Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:40 pm

It's a well know fact that in many cases the dentists, physicians and other "respectable" organisations in Denmark follow the trends from the U.S.A.. I'm sure that Sweden and Norway will move faster towards amalgam free practises.

I will certainly not rest my case. This is a struggle that will continue :wink:
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Re: The amalgam issue

Postby michalis5354 » Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:47 am

cosmo1969 wrote:The major problem, in this big mess, is diagnosing for mercury toxicity. the list of symptoms are very long and ranges from pathological to psychological problems and it is no wonder that the physicians are not able to make a proper diagnose. As mentioned it is often mistaken as a mental problem where the patient maybe ending up being prescribed a useless drug.


I totally agree with this argument. Many doctors prescribe medicine to cure the symptoms but not the cause for these symptoms. Obviously more empirical investigation is needed to provide clarity and worldwide acceptance and recognition of the pros and cons of amalgam fillings.

I'm not a chemist nor a physician, all the knowledge I have gained is through the sites that I previously referred to, but just in case.

www.melisa.org
www.iaomt.com/
www.toxicteeth.org

Mr. Huggins seems to be making a living but if people gets the proper infomation through his books it's all right by me.


I am aslo determined to investiage this further. My email is

[email protected]
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Amalgam issue

Postby cosmo1969 » Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:41 pm

Maybe I was a little bit harsh on Mr. Huggins. As stated before I have a general scepticism when money is involved and this certainly goes for both sides. I am quite sure that he has done a lot of good to a lot of people (this is not sarcasm).
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