Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

What's all the fuss about.?

Did something big happened yesterday.?

What ever happened to the good old British Justice system, where they no longer protect their own morally corrupted people.!

Times are changing for the better, for sure.!

[Hermes]

This is good for a laugh on so many levels:

Turkey - Press Release Regarding the Orams Case

The British Court of Appeal has announced today (19 January) its judgment publicly known as the Orams case, concerning the enforcement, in the UK, of the judgments given by the courts of the Greek Cypriot Administration as regards the property in the TRNC, and declared that judgments of the courts of the Greek Cypriot Administration could be executed in the UK.

In the previous statement made by our Ministry following the European Court of Justice’s (ECJ) judgment on the Orams case on 28 April 2009, it was announced that this judgement contradicted the parameters of the negotiation process and the nature of the new partnership to be established, constituting a clear example of the Greek Cypriot Administration’s misuse of its unjustly acquired membership to the European Union. Unfortunately, the recent judgment of the British Court of Appeal which affirms these negative elements is a cause of concern in several aspects.

First of all, the judgment of the British Court of Appeal is of the nature to complicate the Cyprus issue on which the comprehensive settlement efforts in the UN framework are ongoing with the aim of establishment of a new Partnership with two Constituent States on the basis of bizonality and political equality and may estrange the Greek Cypriot side from the settlement aim.

This judgment, which is a result of the unilateral EU membership of the Greek Cypriot Administration which has been awarded, despite its rejection of the UN Comprehensive Settlement Plan in 2004, presents a high risk of damaging the settlement aim at a time when the efforts for a just and lasting settlement in Cyprus under the auspices of the UN have intensified and reached a critical stage.

Taking into consideration the critical stage of the ongoing negotiations in the Island, the timing of this judgment has also been most unfortunate from the stand point of good will and legal objectivity. It should be known by all concerned parties that this judgment cannot have an impact on the issues related to the Property chapter of the negotiations.

The approach of the UK as a guarantor power during the process which resulted with this judgment that can negatively affect the ongoing negotiating process is noteworthy. It is also observed that the British Court of Appeal ignored the existence of an effective legal system in Northern Cyprus, which was also emphasized in the ECtHR judgments.

The measures to be taken as regards this judgment are being evaluated together with the TRNC authorities.

http://www.isria.com/pages/20_January_2010_100.php

[Jerry]

My take on yesterday’s events and how it will affect Cyprus.

If one accepts that the “sale” of GC property to outsiders is a complication that we do not need, then yesterday’s judgement was a good thing. It will, no doubt, seriously curtail future sales and therefore damage the fragile economy in the north, it could be a wake up call for the “trnc”. On the other hand Turkey will make up for the “trnc’s” loss and so increase its hold on that part of Cyprus that is a bad thing.

The problem with “The Cyprus Problem” is that the principal players, Turkey and the ROC, are employing diverse and irreconcilable means to achieve a solution. Turkey uses armed force and illegal occupation whilst the ROC employs the law and human rights; it is difficult to see which will prevail. In a sense Turkey is, with regard to its EU aspirations, painting itself into a corner, the more changes it makes in the north the less likely it will ever join the club. On the other hand the longer the ROC “holds out” the chances of a fair solution diminish as the north’s demography changes. I honestly cannot see Turkey ever completely packing up its bags and leaving the island – it’s not right and it’s not fair but it is, in my opinion, a reality we must face. Conversely the TCs must accept that the “trnc” will never be legally recognised without the consent of the ROC.

So how do we reverse the separation of the two communities? I would suggest that the ROC actively encourages TCs to move back south and, in the spirit of yesterday’s decision, genuinely compensates those who wish to sell their land. Land purchased from TCs could be sold to dispossessed GCs who would still retain their ownership rights in the north.

Many GCs will not use the “Immovable Properties Commission” claiming that in doing so they are selling a GC part of Cyprus to the other side but this would not be the case if they purchased TC land in the ROC, it could lead to genuine exchange until of course the TCs ran out of land.

I believe that once a sustained flow of TCs moving south is established a fair solution would be more easily achieved.

There is, however, genuine fear amongst some TCs about getting back with the ROC. Yesterday Bill and I had rather a heated discussion with a representative of “Embargoed”. He just kept spouting “Akritas Plan” “massacre”. I suggested that both sides need to move on from the past he said that the problem did not start in 1974 (as we are supposed to claim) but in 1963. I then reminded him that Guenyeli occurred in 1958 but he dismissed that because only 8 people were murdered so it was not a proper massacre. He then “reminded” me of incidents in 1931 and 1914 – I’m not sure which massacres took place in those years – perhaps someone can enlighten me so I said, “how far do you want to go back, 1830, 1570, we have to move on?” I also tried to point out that within the EU TCs should be secure; indeed they should insist that the EU takes over from Turkey as a Guarantor in the event of a settlement. He also claimed that Evkaf land still belonged to his community because the £1.5k paid in 1960 was not enough. Talking to propagandists with extreme views, as we did yesterday, it’s easy to see how TCs are persuaded to fear Greek Cypriots, some, however, with justification.

This fear is, I regret to say, reinforced by some of the posts I see on this site. Banter between established “adversaries” and “plonkerisation” is one thing but some of the abuse and venom I see on Cyprus Forum leads me to think that some forum regulars have the notion that they can help solve the Cyprus Problem simply by racially abusing and insulting the other side. As I write this there are 7 registered users and 31 guests looking in. We (Svetlana may) don‘t know who the 31 are but I bet the majority come away with the conclusion that Cypriots are still at each other’s throats and beyond help and sympathy.

It is often said that individual lawsuits are no substitute for a comprehensive settlement. I disagree. They put pressure on Turkey to reach an agreement with us. I have often wondered if the UK government could be legally challenged for its failure to ensure the independence and territorial integrity of the ROC.

[Tim Drayton]

..something that does not exist cannot collapse...The trnc economy is entirely supported by Turkey,at great expense,and this will continue until a solution is found...

It's Turkey's economy, which will collapse. That is the bulls-eye ...

You know so little about Turkey,it is really laughable...
Turkey' economy is one of the last in the world to collapse...You know why??? Because it is largely a black market economy,outside the reach of global economic forces...

For one thing, Turkey profits massively from being the lynchpin country of the world heroin trade - and not a cent of this shows up in official trade statistics! According to one source:

http://cryptome.org/turkey-tale.htm

"Turkey’s heroin trafficking brought in $25 billion in 1995 and $37.5 billion in 1996."

[bill cobbett]

Here are some more photos from yesterday .....

Here is our J (in full frontal ) with our M and Mr A ...



M and yours truly with Mr A ....



The National Heros Mr C and Mr A .....



... and one of the Champagne Reception/Press Conf ....

[bill cobbett]

Sorry Jerry, just to bump up your take .....

My take on yesterday’s events and how it will affect Cyprus.

If one accepts that the “sale” of GC property to outsiders is a complication that we do not need, then yesterday’s judgement was a good thing. It will, no doubt, seriously curtail future sales and therefore damage the fragile economy in the north, it could be a wake up call for the “trnc”. On the other hand Turkey will make up for the “trnc’s” loss and so increase its hold on that part of Cyprus that is a bad thing.

The problem with “The Cyprus Problem” is that the principal players, Turkey and the ROC, are employing diverse and irreconcilable means to achieve a solution. Turkey uses armed force and illegal occupation whilst the ROC employs the law and human rights; it is difficult to see which will prevail. In a sense Turkey is, with regard to its EU aspirations, painting itself into a corner, the more changes it makes in the north the less likely it will ever join the club. On the other hand the longer the ROC “holds out” the chances of a fair solution diminish as the north’s demography changes. I honestly cannot see Turkey ever completely packing up its bags and leaving the island – it’s not right and it’s not fair but it is, in my opinion, a reality we must face. Conversely the TCs must accept that the “trnc” will never be legally recognised without the consent of the ROC.

So how do we reverse the separation of the two communities? I would suggest that the ROC actively encourages TCs to move back south and, in the spirit of yesterday’s decision, genuinely compensates those who wish to sell their land. Land purchased from TCs could be sold to dispossessed GCs who would still retain their ownership rights in the north.

Many GCs will not use the “Immovable Properties Commission” claiming that in doing so they are selling a GC part of Cyprus to the other side but this would not be the case if they purchased TC land in the ROC, it could lead to genuine exchange until of course the TCs ran out of land.

I believe that once a sustained flow of TCs moving south is established a fair solution would be more easily achieved.

There is, however, genuine fear amongst some TCs about getting back with the ROC. Yesterday Bill and I had rather a heated discussion with a representative of “Embargoed”. He just kept spouting “Akritas Plan” “massacre”. I suggested that both sides need to move on from the past he said that the problem did not start in 1974 (as we are supposed to claim) but in 1963. I then reminded him that Guenyeli occurred in 1958 but he dismissed that because only 8 people were murdered so it was not a proper massacre. He then “reminded” me of incidents in 1931 and 1914 – I’m not sure which massacres took place in those years – perhaps someone can enlighten me so I said, “how far do you want to go back, 1830, 1570, we have to move on?” I also tried to point out that within the EU TCs should be secure; indeed they should insist that the EU takes over from Turkey as a Guarantor in the event of a settlement. He also claimed that Evkaf land still belonged to his community because the £1.5k paid in 1960 was not enough. Talking to propagandists with extreme views, as we did yesterday, it’s easy to see how TCs are persuaded to fear Greek Cypriots, some, however, with justification.

This fear is, I regret to say, reinforced by some of the posts I see on this site. Banter between established “adversaries” and “plonkerisation” is one thing but some of the abuse and venom I see on Cyprus Forum leads me to think that some forum regulars have the notion that they can help solve the Cyprus Problem simply by racially abusing and insulting the other side. As I write this there are 7 registered users and 31 guests looking in. We (Svetlana may) don‘t know who the 31 are but I bet the majority come away with the conclusion that Cypriots are still at each other’s throats and beyond help and sympathy.

It is often said that individual lawsuits are no substitute for a comprehensive settlement. I disagree. They put pressure on Turkey to reach an agreement with us. I have often wondered if the UK government could be legally challenged for its failure to ensure the independence and territorial integrity of the ROC.

[Lit]

Wonderful news. I currently do not have the time to read the whole thread but would sure like to just to read some of the responses from our TC brothers.

[wyoming cowboy]

Do the results of this case, mean that any Greek cyp can place a lien on a Turk cyp properties in the free areas if the turk cyp is living in his house in the occuppied areas......

[wyoming cowboy]

or for any other using up his property in occuppied cyprus......the result of the appeal stated that the liens in england do not have to be conducted in english courts but they can be applied in Republic of Cyprus courts.....

[Get Real!]

He then “reminded” me of incidents in 1931

September 1931, the first GC anti-Brit demonstrations in Nicosia but no casualties that I know of.

and 1914 – I’m not sure which massacres took place in those years

In 1914 Britain was at war with the Ottomans, and sometime in November annexed Cyprus… no trouble/casualties in Cyprus that I know of.

But anyway, I wouldn’t take anything seriously said by an “Embargoed” fool because first and foremost their brains are embargoed!