Cyprus-Forum.com

[bg_turk]

I want legality. What do they want? If they want legality too, then we can all have the 100% of our rights back simultaneously.

But let us suppose for the sake of argument that you are right in your claim that Turkey is an occupying power, which is their against the will of the great majority of Turkish Cypriots. Why then does the so-called RoC deny the rights of Turkish Cypriots to return to their homes for reasons that are beyond their control. What is the difference between citizens of turkish and greek origin? Isnt your state supposed to defend the right of every citizen regardless of ethnic origin?

[bg_turk]

Fair for me is a solution based on human rights and democracy. If for you fair is something that is undemocratic and against human rights then you are the one with a problem, not me.

Fair for you is a solution that respects YOUR rights. You do not care about the rights of TC to self-determination, to security and to economic freedom.

So you like the Annan plan? I guess you also know that in the annan plan it is said that if this plan was rejected it would be null and void. In this respect it is fair because if we liked it we could have it, and if we didn't like it we could reject it. We rejected it. Fair enough?

Exactly, it is absolutely fair to reject it but also fair to face the consequence of this rejection. You have rejected the only serious solution attempt so far, and you cannot claim that you are pro-solution while your actions show you are clearly not.

And by the way, can you quote me the countries that have officially said that the Annan plan was a fair solution? Lets see how many of the 200 or so countries you can find.
Some countries said that the Annan plan should be accepted as a compromise not because it was fair.

I can for sure say that all European Countries, inclduing Greece to some extent, encouraged the adoption of the plan. To me a compromise plan and a fair plan have the same meaning.

Not most, by the whole world apart from Turkey supports that the one and only state that exists on this island is RoC. Why you do not accept that?

Most of the world only recognizes the RoC because it was the only entity there before 1974, and since the conflict has not been solved ever since, they have not changed their stance of recognizing only one single state on the island and are simply waiting for things to be sorted out. If the Annan Plan was accepted ALL of the world would recognize that state.
Besides the so-called RoC doesnt have diplomatic relations with many countries including Azerbaijan, Bangladesh. These countries recognize your state to the extent that they have not proclaimed officially that they recognize the TRNC.

[Piratis]

But let us suppose for the sake of argument that you are right in your claim that Turkey is an occupying power, which is their against the will of the great majority of Turkish Cypriots.

Who said it is against the will of the great majority of TCs? It is not. The majority of them suppor the occupation and the illegality.

Fair for you is a solution that respects YOUR rights. You do not care about the rights of TC to self-determination, to security and to economic freedom.

TCs are a minority they have the some rights like all other minorities in the world and not whatever "right" they dream about. Those rights we do not deny to them.

Exactly, it is absolutely fair to reject it but also fair to face the consequence of this rejection.

Was it our right to reject it or not? Why should we have consequences for doing something that was 100% legal and 100% our right to do??
The ones who should have consequences are those that act illegally. In our case there are the Turks and TCs, not us.

You have rejected the only serious solution attempt so far, and you cannot claim that you are pro-solution while your actions show you are clearly not.

Yes, we are not pro that solution. We are pro a solution that will respect human rights and democracy. Those that like the annan plan should apply its principles in their own country. Cyprus is our country and it has been for 3500 years. So we are the ones who will decide what we want for our country and not anybody else.

To me a compromise plan and a fair plan have the same meaning.

Compromise = fair for you? What if I put a gun on your head and you I ask from you to give me all your money? Would you make this compromise? Would it be fair?

Besides the so-called RoC doesnt have diplomatic relations with many countries including Azerbaijan, Bangladesh. These countries recognize your state to the extent that they have not proclaimed officially that they recognize the TRNC.

So next time don't talk about the "whole world". Talk about Azerbaijan and Bangladesh. The whole world recognizes that RoC is the only state on this island and that the occupation is illegal.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

TCs are a minority they have the some rights like all other minorities in the world and not whatever "right" they dream about. Those rights we do not deny to them.

This is where you are totally wrong and should revise your whole philosphy, even in the current status quo situation as the TRNC we are not a minority we have our own country (please spare me the world doesnt recognize u rehtoric, we are here and you have to deal with it), so why should we accept being just any minority?, even if we returned to the 1960 agreements would we be just any minority?? we are now trying to negotiate a 2 component states solution is this just another minority?. We are now more than ever considered a partner in a united Cyprus, if it is to be formed, the sooner you get used to this idea the better it will be for all.
You still have and constantly display a mentality that we are just like any other minority so we should shut up and accept being part of a GC state, this will never happen, our history has dictated we are not and never will be just any minority. You are still stuck on numbers move forward and try to get grips with the facts of today 2005 and realize that the future of a united Cyprus will be based on a partnership between our 2 communites.

[garbitsch]

In any case, Piratis should understand that having a solution that will make us have a constitution worse than 1960 is out of question.

[Piratis]

so why should we accept being just any minority?

I never said that you will and I do not expect you to do so. As long as you can force the violation of our human rights and the occupation of our country in order to gain on our loss you will continue to doing it.

we are now trying to negotiate a 2 component states solution is this just another minority?

Who are "we" in this case? USA has 52 states, not 2. States are geographic segments of a country, they do not separate people based on their race. In USA they have states and they still have minorities. The two things are irrelevant.
What you are trying for is not one Cyprus with 2 federal states, but 2 separate countries in a loose confederation. Something that is not acceptable.

You are still stuck on numbers move forward and try to get grips with the facts of today 2005 and realize that the future of a united Cyprus will be based on a partnership between our 2 communites.

The future of Cyprus is one united country with equal citizens, democracy and human rights either with TCs or without them. Whoever doesn't like our island is free to move out.

[Piratis]

In any case, Piratis should understand that having a solution that will make us have a constitution worse than 1960 is out of question.

You should also understand that having a solution that will make us have a constitution worse than 1960 is out of question.

[bg_turk]

Who said it is against the will of the great majority of TCs? It is not. The majority of them suppor the occupation and the illegality.

If this were the case TCs would have vetoed down the Annan Plan.

With this view of your about TCs, it makes me wonder why you support unification. Is it because you truely have faith in living with TCs in peace and harmony, or you just want to put an end to the "illegalities"?

[Piratis]

If this were the case TCs would have vetoed down the Annan Plan.

TCs would give up a tiny part of the illegalities and legalize everything else. Thats why they voted "yes" to Annan plan. If they didn't support illegality then they would return to RoC.

With this view of your about TCs, it makes me wonder why you support unification. Is it because you truely have faith in living with TCs in peace and harmony, or you just want to put an end to the "illegalities"?

What "view" about TCs are you talking about? The TCs (just like most humans) would try to get as much as they can. I never said that they are bad people or anything like that. As I said in another post most people would cheat and not pay their taxes if they could, even if those taxes are needed for some very good things (hospitals,schools etc).

I want unification because I support human rights and democracy, and because we have a history of 3500 years on the north of our country that we are not willing to write off.

[bg_turk]

I want unification because I support human rights and democracy

for GCs only unfotunately!
It is a very noble reason indeed, and I would applaud you, had I not known that you do not support human rights and democracy for TCs. Why cant those Turkish Cypriots that want to go back to their home, return to their properties in the south NOW?
If I were a TC refugee I would be very frustrated by your attitude. First of all it would be "illegal" for me to live in a GC house. If I wanted to return to my house in the South, despite all the turkopobia, I wouldn't be allowed to do that either, under the pretext that GC refugees now live there, and I should wait until a solution is found. But then if I tried to do something about a solution GCs would say: we cannot really talk to you or the government you have democratically elected, it is Turkey that controls everything. So what are TCs supposed to do?

and because we have a history of 3500 years on the north of our country that we are not willing to write off.

This one is not a really very valid reason. TCs and Turks have a history in cyprus, maybe not as long, but still they are not willing to write off Kibris as a hellenic island.