Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

Whats the difference in the air.......

With one word? F.I.R.

....and sea ports? Why is one recognition and the other not?

Because the port of Famagusta will operate only when the port is put under the controll of the authorities of the R.O.C.

This doesnt add up, so control over famagusta would not be recognition but ercan would?

[Demonax]

This doesnt add up, so control over famagusta would not be recognition but ercan would?

No. The airport at Tymbou can only operate with consent from the RoC while Turkey would also need to recognise the RoC in order to sign aviation agreements. That is why the 'trnc' can only have direct flights if it recognises the sovereignty of the RoC over the north. Plus the Turkish army would also have to return Varosha as demanded by the GCs. This was too high a price for Turkey and Denktash to pay.

In the case of the ports they would be co-managed under EU or UN supervision as a way of avoiding infringing on the sovereignty of the Republic.

The TCs have been offered direct trade - even direct flights to the north (via opening Nicosia International Airport) in exchange for Varosha. But have always turned it down because it means accepting the sovereignty of the Republic of Cyprus over the whole island.

This is where the TCs run up against the reality of international law. Direct flights and trade can only happen with the consent and agreement of the RoC and as long as it is under the legal jurisdiction of the RoC. And that means Turkey and the TCs accepting the sovereignty of the RoC over the north.

[Viewpoint]

This doesnt add up, so control over famagusta would not be recognition but ercan would?

No. The airport at Tymbou can only operate with consent from the RoC while Turkey would also need to recognise the RoC in order to sign aviation agreements. That is why the 'trnc' can only have direct flights if it recognises the sovereignty of the RoC over the north. Plus the Turkish army would also have to return Varosha as demanded by the GCs. This was too high a price for Turkey and Denktash to pay.

In the case of the ports they would be co-managed under EU or UN supervision as a way of avoiding infringing on the sovereignty of the Republic.

The TCs have been offered direct trade - even direct flights to the north (via opening Nicosia International Airport) in exchange for Varosha. But have always turned it down because it means accepting the sovereignty of the Republic of Cyprus over the whole island.

This is where the TCs run up against the reality of international law. Direct flights and trade can only happen with the consent and agreement of the RoC and as long as it is under the legal jurisdiction of the RoC. And that means Turkey and the TCs accepting the sovereignty of the RoC over the north.

Again you avoid the question why does there have to be recognition in the case of ercan and not famagusta? what is the difference if they are to be managed in the same EU UN structure....doesnt famagusta need permission to operate internationally? I think you are bullshitting.

[kimon07]

Whats the difference in the air.......

With one word? F.I.R.

....and sea ports? Why is one recognition and the other not?

Because the port of Famagusta will operate only when the port is put under the controll of the authorities of the R.O.C.

This doesnt add up, so control over famagusta would not be recognition but ercan would?

Let me help you ....think!

If Famagusta and all trade from it is returned to the control of the RoC like the RoC asks, that does not constitute recognition of the "trnc" as it is self understood. It constitutes a reestablisment on it of the control of its sovereign owner.

On the other hand, if Tymbou is permited to operate the way Turkey wants it to i.e., outside the responnsibility of the F.I.R. of the R.o.C., but under the illegal "F.I.R" which the "trnc" has declared (but has not been and will not be recognized by ICAO), then, that would mean recognition by the R.o.C. of the non existent/illegal "FIR" of the "trnc", i.e., of the "trnc" itself. That's because only sovereign state entities have F.I.R. CONSEQUENTLY, accepting that the "trnc" has its own F.I.R is equal to recognizing that it is a sovereign state.

[Viewpoint]

But famagusta port is not being given to the GCs the area called Maraş is, the sea port will remain under our control in the TRNC but supervised by the EU and UN, how is that different form having ercan supervised the same way. Surely different principles cannot be applied in each case as it suits the GCs in order to obtain recognition from Turkey, neither side should benefit by being recognized due to these changes.

[Flying Horse]

Famagusta is far more important for trade routes than a silly insignificant airport.

Both sides benefit profusely from opening up the port in agreement and shared responsibility for it.

How far up the tree is Cyprus in the shipping world? Third ranking off top of my head or something? Lot more beneficial than a few more planes of tourists. Famagusta was there far longer than a bit of tarmac.

[Demonax]

But famagusta port is not being given to the GCs the area called Maraş is, the sea port will remain under our control in the TRNC but supervised by the EU and UN, how is that different form having ercan supervised the same way. Surely different principles cannot be applied in each case as it suits the GCs in order to obtain recognition from Turkey, neither side should benefit by being recognized due to these changes.

Just to clarify this. The port would be opened under EU or UN administration for direct trade, but under the sovereignty of the Republic of Cyprus, with arrangements to ensure Turkish Cypriot involvement in management. It would not be under the ‘control’ of the ‘trnc’ in the sense you seem to think.

As for the airport, try and understand that whenever the issue of direct flights to Tymbou or a re-opened Nicosia Airport was discussed in the past Turkey and the military turned it down because the airports would remain under the control and jurisdiction of the Republic - as international law dictates. And that Turkey would have to recognise the Republic and its sovereignty over the north to enter into aviation agreements.

The main problem, as kimon says, would be the Flight Information Region (FIR) for Tymbou flights which can only happen with RoC sovereignty not being compromised. Something Turkey and the military have not been willing to accept.

[Get Real!]

You’re all wasting your breath here. When Cyprus says they want Varosi back they mean with no strings attached.

Nobody here is interested or foolish enough to get into an illegal quagmire that can later be used against them by the enemy and that’s why it’s not going to happen.

[kimon07]

But famagusta port is not being given to the GCs the area called Maraş................

No, no, we don't want Maraş. You can Keep that city to teach your children of your glorious history.

Maraş Massacre
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Location: Kahramanmaraş, Turkey
Date: December 1978
Target: Kurdish Alevi civilians
Deaths: 109
Injured (non-fatal): 176
Perpetrators: Grey Wolves

The Maraş Massacre (Turkish: Maraş katliamı) or Kahramanmaraş Massacre of December 1978 was the massacre of over one hundred civilians, mostly Alevi Kurdish slum dwellers, living as migrant workers in shanty towns in the industrial heart of Turkey. The direct perpetrators were the Greywolves.[1] Though the tensions were initially ignited by the bombing by left-wing militants of a cinema frequently visited by ultra-nationalists, the incident is best remembered for the subsequent campaign of violence directed against left-wingers, largely Alevis, although some left-wing Sunnis and Kurds were also targeted.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara%C5%9F_Massacre

[Viewpoint]

But famagusta port is not being given to the GCs the area called Maraş is, the sea port will remain under our control in the TRNC but supervised by the EU and UN, how is that different form having ercan supervised the same way. Surely different principles cannot be applied in each case as it suits the GCs in order to obtain recognition from Turkey, neither side should benefit by being recognized due to these changes.

Just to clarify this. The port would be opened under EU or UN administration for direct trade, but under the sovereignty of the Republic of Cyprus, with arrangements to ensure Turkish Cypriot involvement in management. It would not be under the ‘control’ of the ‘trnc’ in the sense you seem to think.

As for the airport, try and understand that whenever the issue of direct flights to Tymbou or a re-opened Nicosia Airport was discussed in the past Turkey and the military turned it down because the airports would remain under the control and jurisdiction of the Republic - as international law dictates. And that Turkey would have to recognise the Republic and its sovereignty over the north to enter into aviation agreements.

The main problem, as kimon says, would be the Flight Information Region (FIR) for Tymbou flights which can only happen with RoC sovereignty not being compromised. Something Turkey and the military have not been willing to accept.

Thats even more unacceptable than I initially thought, we are to give the port and maras to the GCs for what?