Cyprus-Forum.com

[repulsewarrior]

...and thus my reminder, that Individual Rights, their restoration, alone, will not resolve the issue of Justice seen, too much was done as Persons, and as communities, at least for some, must Cypriots return, as Greeks, and as Turks, for there to be a demonstration of our recognition and respect toward each other.

a Cypriot flag must fly higher, National Constituencies otherwise escape their responsibility toward the notions that make us more than Peoples, but a Human race.

...in my mind, it is the displaced that are first on the Agenda, and any 'settlement' as you say requires Justice, for them.

(i understand, from your personal example, how complex it is this issue, it is not a reason to give up, or to be happy with the way things are, i know we must find better in any case.)

[Viewpoint]

The İssac and Soloman incidents although regrettable happened in a war zone where there was mayhem and danger, Talat was just attending a meeting as your guest, totally 2 different things.

You're right. Completely different. Two Greek Cypriot men were killed by a savage mob of Turkish officials and extremists. Then their murderers were praised as heroes and given senior jobs in the occupation administration. No- one has been brought to justice for the crimes even though the murderers are well-known.

In the case of Talat, a group of protestors broke a window. No- one was hurt. The next day the police chief was sacked for allowing the protesters to disrupt the meeting.

The two cases are vastly different.

The guarantors should decide whether intervention is necessary not the waring factions, all they can do is ask for help.

You're confusing the 'right of guarantee' with a law and order issue. The treaty of guarantee was designed to protect the sovereignty of the Republic. Something which Turkey violated and blatantly abused.

The best guarantee for Turkish Cypriots is that they commit to a just settlement which reverses the occupation. Anything else would lead to bitterness and instability.

So we agree they were two totally different cases one where one was in the middle of riots and fighting and the other in a "peaceful" european city as a guest of the GCs.

As for the guarantee being just about soverignty I think erolz has cleared up that misconception and that it was to restore a working structure which to date we have still not agreed.

[Viewpoint]

Police will be stationed in each state and there will also be a federal police force,more than enough. talat incident the police chief fired.what ever whith the murders os Isaac and Solomon?how I'm i going to kick the shit out of you?that police can't handle.

Look if you want political equality it has to be everything not pick and choose now answer please.

deal?

The İssac and Soloman incidents although regrettable happened in a war zone where there was mayhem and danger, Talat was just attending a meeting as your guest, totally 2 different things. Think of it this way do you trust TC police? then times that by 10 and you will understand how much we trust GC police.

This is not political equality its manipulating the system to beat the shit out of the other side and place them in great danger. The guarantors should decide whether intervention is necessary not the waring factions, all they can do is ask for help.

I'm sorry vp you don't want to answer the question.Cyprus will be demilitarized ,in the EU,all foreign troops gone and a good police presence in both states and on the federal level.double majorities for Greece,turkey,GB to intervene.Political equality.If the tc demand political equality on ALL MATTERS the gc should demand it on security.

Double majorites on such a life threatening subject only reconfirms what we Tcs have beening saying all you along, your real aim to remove our safety net and wipe out our effective say, any such acceptence would mean the guarantees would in effect become null and void. There has to be an effective alternative this matter cannot be left to chance.

[Maximus]

Its absurd that the Tc's need the Gc's to sign a document that will allow Turkey to 'intervene' to maintain an unjust law and order in their favor in Cyprus. Its completely bonkers and destroys their credibility.

What I need maximus is to know that if we sign an agreement you will not after having signed it claim it was and is in effect unfair and unfairly imposed on you and you can and will unilaterally amend it to your desires and if necessary use violence against us to do so.

If you of all people can not understand why I need this, given that even today you claim that (any parts you choose) of previous agreements you signed with us were and are unfair, were unfairly imposed on you and thus you had every right to unilaterally amend them and use (planned and organised) violence where deemed necessary against us in order to unilaterally amend them, then we do indeed have an on-going unresolved problem. At this stage I am open to any suggestion as to how you can provide the assurances we need, unilateral right of Turkish intervention does not have to be the only possibility. However it does require you to understand what my concerns are and why I have them and honestly given what I have seen from you on this forum to date I am not at all sure that is something you personaly are capable of.

They way I see it, there is nothing the GC have to sign. Cyprus is in the EU and Turkey has signed a readmission agreement (which deals with the settlers and illegal immigrants) and is trying to accede to the union too. The TC's are already under the EU umbrella and are enjoying the benefits but they just have to ratify it and learn how to be civil and respect the other.

If you need the GC's to sign a piece of paper that gives Turkey rights to invade and do the same again, like she did in 1974 then you do not have any faith in Turkey to act in order to "save you". Wouldn't she do it anyway, without the GC signature? You just need it for propaganda purposes and to try the same again!

I maintain that the best thing for people like you otherwise do is to move to Turkey. This would be in everyone's best interest. This is what you should do.

[B25]

Would they be the same agreements like the customs union you signed,

I signed a customs union ? I think you are confusing me / tc community with Turkey. In any case this is the usual tactic used, when there is something you do not want to address , just accuse us or others as worse as a means to ignore the issue you do not want to address. Tiresome and actually pretty pathetic really but not unexpected.

In case it has escaped your tiny brain, we are dealing with Turkey. TCs who and what are they. Even your own motherland Turkey does not recognise nor respect you that's why they brought in the settlers to sort you lot out.

We will be signing agreements with Turkey and it is they that matter, you are but an insignificant parasite that needs to be swatted.
This is the point I am making, but as it doesn't suit you, you just come along to spin what you want to hear.

[B25]

Property rights encompass full rights to ones property.

Here we get to the thorny issue of 'just settlement'. Whilst I can understand a perspective that says 'just' re property just means everything goes back to the pre 74 owners I do not think this necessarily is a 'just' settlement. Let me give a personal example. In 1964 my Aunt's husband was taken from his place of work (Barclays bank) in broad daylight and in public by an illegal GC militia (set up and run out of the interior ministry of the RoC) and he was murdered and his body dumped in a well in Ayia Napa (his body was finally recovered and returned some 30+ years later by the CMP). I do have to say he was not an extremist, not a member of tmt, just an ordinary Cypriot doing his best to support his family. In 1974 my Aunt was given a property that was GC prior to 1974 as 'compensation' for the loss of her husband. The history of this property is know, in that whilst it was GC owned prior to 74 it was never a GC home. From the time it was built until 74 it was never the GC owners home and was used exclusively as an income generating rental property from when it was first built to 1974. My Aunt has lived in this house from 74 to the present day. For her it is a 'home' with all the emotional attachment that implies. It is where she raised her three children, without a husband. What is more it represent not just 'home' for her but in a very real and palpable way it represents 'security' and the absence of 'living in fear' that marked the 10 years of her life prior to 74 from the point her husband 'disappeared'. So I have to ask is it 'just' that she, now in her 70s should be forced from this home so that it can be returned to the pre 74 GC owners ? Even if there were some mechanism for compensation for her if she were to be forced to leave this property, which is far from clear anyway given that it was not given to her in exchange for property lost but in exchange for a husband and father lost, is not the most 'just' thing in a scenario like this that the GC owners receive monetary compensation for the lost property that was only ever an income source for them pre 74 and never a home so that she can be allowed to live ut the remainder of her life there for who it really is a home ?

My belief is a 'just settlement' would require a humanistic and compassionate case by case approach to issues such as these that is not compatible with a simple 'everything must return to pre 74 owners' approach. Can you understand why I think this ?

How many more times do we need to hear this sob story. For everyone that you write there are 5 GC similar stories to be told, but I guess you don't care about them as long as you get to state your case yet again.

If the Turkish authorities wanted to rehome and compensate this woman, they could have built her a house on a TCs land, could they not?? Irrespective if it were a rental home or not, you still stole it pure and simple.

[Maximus]

My belief is a 'just settlement' would require a humanistic and compassionate case by case approach to issues such as these that is not compatible with a simple 'everything must return to pre 74 owners' approach. Can you understand why I think this ?

Because you are part of a group of facist brainwashed and politically immature people that no one recognises. who are in a state of illegality due to the humanitarian crimes that they and Turkey committed and are trying to now find a way out, that also benefits them and exonerates themselves from these crimes.

[Viewpoint]

Ho my god these GC responses have just reconfirmed that you cannot find a solution with extremist facist ignorant people like them, erol you and I are wasting our time...they are just taking the piss and not worth it(British slang). They deserve the current situation.

[Maximus]

Ho my god these GC responses have just reconfirmed that you cannot find a solution with extremist facist ignorant people like them, erol you and I are wasting our time...they are just taking the piss and not worth it(British slang). They deserve the current situation.

This proves my point,

[erolz66]

But if it's a rental property your aunt can pay rent to the gc owner.If the gc owner wishes to keep it,if not he can sell it or exchange it.The point is the owner should have the option to do what he wishes with the property.What has become of your aunt properties?if she dosent want them she will sell them to help either buy or rent the property she lives in.

Yes my Aunt could be forced to pay rent but is such a solution really 'just' ? If the RoC had wanted to build a road through this property then it would have been compulsorily purchased and the GC owners forced to accept compensation. Why then is forcing them to take compensation in a case like this as part of a settlement such an anathema ? Right to property is not absolute. Right to life should be absolute but was not. Where is the talk of compensation for the murder of her husband, killed by illegal agents of the RoC ? Where is the talk of justice for her ? My Aunt owns no property in the South, though in the period from 64-74 she twice had to flee homes for fear of her and her children's lives and lived in tent cities for much of this period. It does feel like the demand for 'justice' is to be only for those who lost property as a result of 74, everything lost before that is all to be forgotten, be it property or life. Where is the justice in that ?