Cyprus-Forum.com

[Sotos]

Are you retarded or just plain stupid? What I support for the majority and the minorities in Cyprus is what I support for the majority and the minorities in Turkey?

What you are supporting is NOT for the majorities and minorities in CYPRUS - that is the whole fucking point you retard. If that was what you had supported then we would not be in this fucking mess. What YOU support is that you alone can choose that we will NOT be a minority in CYPRUS but will in fact be a minority of a minority in GREECE and we can have NO SAY in that decision at all. Can you see the difference yet ?

And who choose that Constantinople, Smyrna and all the other cities were Greeks historically lived would be part of a country called "Turkey" you stupid Mongoloid? Wasn't the Turks ALONE who choose this while the Greek people were given NO SAY in that decision at all?

[Sotos]

Let me make it even easier for you VP: You can have ANYTHING you want in Cyprus as long as you give the SAME to the Greek minority in Turkey. The ONLY thing I do not accept is double standards. So you can say the majority should have ABC rights and the minorities should have XYZ rights and we apply anything YOU think is fair and just to both Cyprus and Turkey.

Man you are displaying a great deal of stupidity and bloody mindedness, Turkey would never try to give itself to another country where the Greek minority would be placed in danger, I think you are fucking with us and being real stupid just to try and wind us up. No GC has backed up your claim because they can see that you demand a right to shit all over us, yet if you have no intention to do such a thing you would have no problem accepting what erol wants in order to protect TCs under the very dangerous mindset you continue to display on this forum.

The Turks committed GENOCIDES against the minorities you stupid moron. If any minorities deserve additional rights for protection those are the minorities of Turkey.

[boulio]

Is any tc going to tell us a few laws that would effect each community differently that would need separate votes that erol advocates or are we going to talk about history in this thread?

[repulsewarrior]

...indeed.

imagine 50 seats in an upper chamber that are reserved for Turkish Cypriot Representatives, 50 seats reserved for Greek Cypriot Representatives, (and five others: Maronite, Armenian, Rome). imagine a typical voter who votes for (2) Representatives for this Chamber, one Turkish, one Greek, (and possibly Maronite, etc); how fair is that? think about it, to win a Majority in this House, a President's Party must have attracted Candidates from both Constituencies, (all Constituencies), and it is virtually impossible for a President to wield any power, purely as a "Greek", or as a "Turk". and, if there was a third list of Candidates to choose from, and Independent would be found, for a Lower House, a voice for sober second thought, which votes by Consensus, these Representatives, a voice, by population. it is simple, do the math, and think, a demographic quite different, possibly, in the future, (although they may still find pleasure in this array of choices), why not a credibility as Human Beings, beyond an "ethnic" identity, held in high esteem, because Freedom we secure united as Individuals, (wanting our differences if you will), a Republic where for all of us, as Cypriots, we are its Citizens. and Liberty, being Bicommunal (and Bizonal) we secure as Persons, equals in sustaining these distinct Identities, as Cypriot Constituencies, regardless of size.

[Viewpoint]

Let me make it even easier for you VP: You can have ANYTHING you want in Cyprus as long as you give the SAME to the Greek minority in Turkey. The ONLY thing I do not accept is double standards. So you can say the majority should have ABC rights and the minorities should have XYZ rights and we apply anything YOU think is fair and just to both Cyprus and Turkey.

Man you are displaying a great deal of stupidity and bloody mindedness, Turkey would never try to give itself to another country where the Greek minority would be placed in danger, I think you are fucking with us and being real stupid just to try and wind us up. No GC has backed up your claim because they can see that you demand a right to shit all over us, yet if you have no intention to do such a thing you would have no problem accepting what erol wants in order to protect TCs under the very dangerous mindset you continue to display on this forum.

The Turks committed GENOCIDES against the minorities you stupid moron. If any minorities deserve additional rights for protection those are the minorities of Turkey.

When did the Turks try and gift Turkey to another country? plus a well known minority has been fighting back for years, killing innocent people. But yet again you try and cloud the issue minorities in other countries can fight for their rights according to international agreements like us, we have you signature on an internationally recognized agreement which clearly give us our rights and you clearly want to erase so that you can shit all over us.

[Viewpoint]

...indeed.

imagine 50 seats in an upper chamber that are reserved for Turkish Cypriot Representatives, 50 seats reserved for Greek Cypriot Representatives, (and five others: Maronite, Armenian, Rome). imagine a typical voter who votes for (2) Representatives for this Chamber, one Turkish, one Greek, (and possibly Maronite, etc); how fair is that? think about it, to win a Majority in this House, a President's Party must have attracted Candidates from both Constituencies, (all Constituencies), and it is virtually impossible for a President to wield any power, purely as a "Greek", or as a "Turk". and, if there was a third list of Candidates to choose from, and Independent would be found, for a Lower House, a voice for sober second thought, which votes by Consensus, these Representatives, a voice, by population. it is simple, do the math, and think, a demographic quite different, possibly, in the future, (although they may still find pleasure in this array of choices), why not a credibility as Human Beings, beyond an "ethnic" identity, held in high esteem, because Freedom we secure united as Individuals, (wanting our differences if you will), a Republic where for all of us, as Cypriots, we are its Citizens. and Liberty, being Bicommunal (and Bizonal) we secure as Persons, equals in sustaining these distinct Identities, as Cypriot Constituencies, regardless of size.

Sotos is against this.

[Sotos]

Let me make it even easier for you VP: You can have ANYTHING you want in Cyprus as long as you give the SAME to the Greek minority in Turkey. The ONLY thing I do not accept is double standards. So you can say the majority should have ABC rights and the minorities should have XYZ rights and we apply anything YOU think is fair and just to both Cyprus and Turkey.

Man you are displaying a great deal of stupidity and bloody mindedness, Turkey would never try to give itself to another country where the Greek minority would be placed in danger, I think you are fucking with us and being real stupid just to try and wind us up. No GC has backed up your claim because they can see that you demand a right to shit all over us, yet if you have no intention to do such a thing you would have no problem accepting what erol wants in order to protect TCs under the very dangerous mindset you continue to display on this forum.

The Turks committed GENOCIDES against the minorities you stupid moron. If any minorities deserve additional rights for protection those are the minorities of Turkey.

When did the Turks try and gift Turkey to another country? plus a well known minority has been fighting back for years, killing innocent people. But yet again you try and cloud the issue minorities in other countries can fight for their rights according to international agreements like us, we have you signature on an internationally recognized agreement which clearly give us our rights and you clearly want to erase so that you can shit all over us.

For the Greeks Turkey IS the other country. Thats the whole point of the discussion isn't it? That the Greeks of the western coast of Anatolia were forced to be part of a country without having any say. Your rights in the 1960 agreements are only legal rights gained by force ... not natural rights. And if you want those rights then you have to also accept our rights in that same agreement.

[erolz66]

Are you retarded or just plain stupid? What I support for the majority and the minorities in Cyprus is what I support for the majority and the minorities in Turkey?

What you are supporting is NOT for the majorities and minorities in CYPRUS - that is the whole fucking point you retard. If that was what you had supported then we would not be in this fucking mess. What YOU support is that you alone can choose that we will NOT be a minority in CYPRUS but will in fact be a minority of a minority in GREECE and we can have NO SAY in that decision at all. Can you see the difference yet ?

And who choose that Constantinople, Smyrna and all the other cities were Greeks historically lived would be part of a country called "Turkey" you stupid Mongoloid? Wasn't the Turks ALONE who choose this while the Greek people were given NO SAY in that decision at all?

Nobody got to choose by what means they would get to exercise their right to self determination at the time when Turkey was formed as a nation state because at that time there WAS NO SUCH RIGHT defined in international law. This is not just true in the case of Turkey it is true in the case of EVERY nation state formed BEFORE 1941, everywhere.

[erolz66]

For the Greeks Turkey IS the other country. Thats the whole point of the discussion isn't it? That the Greeks of the western coast of Anatolia were forced to be part of a country without having any say. Your rights in the 1960 agreements are only legal rights gained by force ... not natural rights. And if you want those rights then you have to also accept our rights in that same agreement.

The correct comparison would be if TC had demanded a right to not be CYPRIOT in the face of calls for a Cypriot nation. Why do you refuse to see this difference ?

Even ignoring the temporal differences you still refuse to see the fundamental difference between the two cases.

NOTHING the TC community could have said in the face of a demand for an independent Cyprus that included them as part of that unitary CYPRIOT people at the TIME the status of Cyprus was to be decided as an expression of the right to self determination would have made them a separate people with a separate right to self determination. The ONLY thing that could make them a separate people at this time and under the right to self determination is GC saying we are not nor do we wish to be part of a unitary Cypriot people.

So let me translate that into a hypothetical scenario where the status of those who lived in what is now Turkey was defined as an expression of the right to self determination, even though this was not WHEN and HOW Turkey was formed as a nation state.

NOTHING the Greek community living in Turkey could have said in the face of a demand for an independent Turkey that included them as part of that unitary Turkish people at the TIME the status of Turkey was to be decided as an expression of the right to self determination would have made them a separate people with a separate right to self determination. The ONLY thing that could make them a separate people at this time and under the right to self determination is the Turkish community saying we are not nor do we wish to be part of a unitary Turkish people.

[erolz66]

Is any tc going to tell us a few laws that would effect each community differently that would need separate votes that erol advocates or are we going to talk about history in this thread?

Because I am not talking about a set of specific laws. What I am talking about is a principle of the MINIMUM rights the communities should have in a unified Cypriot state when and only when members of each community chose to act NOT as individuals REGARDLESS of ethnic community and for the common good of all Cypriots but solely BECAUSE of what ethnic community they come from and for their good as a community at the expense of the other.

If you are asking for hypothetical examples of what kind of situation may lead to the individuals of the communities acting in such a way then the elephant in the room would be a GC pursuit of enosis. If you want a different hypothetical example then here is one. A law is proposed that seeks to limited foreign investment in Cypriot companies for outside the EU. 95% of all foreign investment in businesses in Cyprus owned by GC comes from within the EU. 75% of foreign investment in business in Cyprus owned by TC comes from outside the EU. If the only people who support such a law are GC and no TC can be convinced to support it, not even 5% of TC, because it affects TC businesses so differently to how it would affect GC ones, then there would be some mechanism where by the TC community can block such a law - though in a sane Cyprus what would happen is the would legislators would look for some compromise solution, accepting the different impact it would have on TC businesses vs GC ones and look at some kind of dispensation to minimise that different effect, an exception for Turkish investment perhaps, or a fund to help those businesses most severely prejudiced by the new law.