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18%, Majority and Turkey!

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Re: 18%, Majority and Turkey!

Postby Sotos » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:12 am

erolz66 wrote:
Sotos wrote: How many of the developed ones have ethnic minority languages as official languages?


Belgium - German is an official language of Belgium and its spoke by 1% of the Belgium population as their first language.
Luxemburg - French is an official language (6% first language) , German is an official language (4% first language).

You want more ?

Oh and just to give you some context for the size of the TC community at 18% of Cypriot population (a part of the Cypriot population that by your own admission you would prefer to never have to see or talk too), the % of the UK population that is of non British ethnicity is 12.9%. So as a numerical minority the TC community is a larger % of the Cypriot population than ALL non British ethnic minorities combined are in the UK.


Most countries (including developed ones) don't have ethnic minority languages as official languages. The Kurdish minority in Turkey is at about the same % as your minority in Cyprus and not only Kurdish is not an official language in Turkey but Turkey doesn't even want them to speak their language!! When the Turks are the majority they give to their minorities way less rights than the norm but when they are the minority themselves they demand way way way more rights than the norm. And as I said I have no problem with Turkish being an official language in Cyprus... my problem is with all the other things you demand for your ethnic minority for which there is NO equivalent anywhere (and don't try to equate your ethnic minority with EU countries or federal states who have their own land because there was no ethnic cleansing and land grab in those cases)
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Re: 18%, Majority and Turkey!

Postby Sotos » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:41 am

erolz66 wrote:
repulsewarrior wrote:
erolz66 wrote:
Sotos wrote: How many of the developed ones have ethnic minority languages as official languages?


Belgium - German is an official language of Belgium and its spoke by 1% of the Belgium population as their first language.
Luxemburg - French is an official language (6% first language) , German is an official language (4% first language).

You want more ?


...I will add Canada to that list, ...


The list of countries that have more than one official language is massive RW. At a quick guess I would estimate 1/3 to 1/2 and possibly more of all countries have more than one official language. South Africa has 11 official languages, 10 of which are spoken by less than 18% of the population. Sotos resents Turkish being an official language of the RoC, not because such is atypical in any way but because he resents there being any Cypriots in Cyprus of Turkish ethnicity at all. That is the simple truth as far as I am concerned.


As far as I am concerned you are a retard who lacks basic comprehension capabilities. What I said is "Turkish as an official language for example ... which we accepted and we didn't want to change". Now you tell me why Kurdish is not an official language in Turkey or when you declared the "trnc" why didn't you make Greek as an "official" language? Proves my point that what the Turks give to their minorities is completely different than what they demand when they are the minority. As far as South Africa goes, the largest linguistic group is less than 25% ... so there is no group who makes up the majority of the population there.
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Re: 18%, Majority and Turkey!

Postby Sotos » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:53 am

And what I resent is having in Cyprus people who do not respect human rights and democracy and believe that they have a "right" to impose their minority views by force.
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Re: 18%, Majority and Turkey!

Postby boomerang » Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:12 am

Sotos wrote:
erolz66 wrote:
repulsewarrior wrote:
erolz66 wrote:
Sotos wrote: How many of the developed ones have ethnic minority languages as official languages?


Belgium - German is an official language of Belgium and its spoke by 1% of the Belgium population as their first language.
Luxemburg - French is an official language (6% first language) , German is an official language (4% first language).

You want more ?


...I will add Canada to that list, ...


The list of countries that have more than one official language is massive RW. At a quick guess I would estimate 1/3 to 1/2 and possibly more of all countries have more than one official language. South Africa has 11 official languages, 10 of which are spoken by less than 18% of the population. Sotos resents Turkish being an official language of the RoC, not because such is atypical in any way but because he resents there being any Cypriots in Cyprus of Turkish ethnicity at all. That is the simple truth as far as I am concerned.


As far as I am concerned you are a retard who lacks basic comprehension capabilities. What I said is "Turkish as an official language for example ... which we accepted and we didn't want to change". Now you tell me why Kurdish is not an official language in Turkey or when you declared the "trnc" why didn't you make Greek as an "official" language? Proves my point that what the Turks give to their minorities is completely different than what they demand when they are the minority. As far as South Africa goes, the largest linguistic group is less than 25% ... so there is no group who makes up the majority of the population there.


again you are dragging the roc to the developing countries level with your mentality...as I said earlier, you are are doing all Cypriots a disservice...

and please enlighten me when you say I am arguing with you because of an earlier thread...please go ahead and tell me which thread...

this one?...
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus36933.html#p705804

OR

this one?
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus36922.html?hilit=boomerang%20greece%20file

:lol: ...where you were lost for words and had no answers... :lol:
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Re: 18%, Majority and Turkey!

Postby erolz66 » Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:19 am

Sotos wrote:
erolz66 wrote:
Sotos wrote: How many of the developed ones have ethnic minority languages as official languages?


Belgium - German is an official language of Belgium and its spoke by 1% of the Belgium population as their first language.
Luxemburg - French is an official language (6% first language) , German is an official language (4% first language).

You want more ?

Oh and just to give you some context for the size of the TC community at 18% of Cypriot population (a part of the Cypriot population that by your own admission you would prefer to never have to see or talk too), the % of the UK population that is of non British ethnicity is 12.9%. So as a numerical minority the TC community is a larger % of the Cypriot population than ALL non British ethnic minorities combined are in the UK.


Most countries (including developed ones) don't have ethnic minority languages as official languages.


Many countries have minority languages as official languages. I gave you two examples to start with where minority languages are official languages and the % that speak these languages is vastly smaller than the TC community in Cyprus. That is just a fact.
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Re: 18%, Majority and Turkey!

Postby erolz66 » Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:45 am

Sotos wrote:And what I resent is having in Cyprus people who do not respect human rights and democracy and believe that they have a "right" to impose their minority views by force.


Look Sotos you cared nothing for human rights from 63-74 when an all GC RoC administration was violating Cypriots' human rights, individual and communal. Nor you do care for human rights when they say that as far as Greek Cypriots choose to define themselves as part of the unitary Greek people, then non Greek Cypriots who also have Cyprus as a homeland have a separate and equal right to self determination. You only 'believe' in human rights (individual and communal) when they benefit you. Nor do you believe in democracy as far as the objective and point of democracy is that people have an effective say in the decisions that control and shape their lives. What you actually believe in is 'tyranny of the majority'.

Yes you will scream and shout that the all GC RoC run administration did nothing illegal in the period 63-74, violated no Cypriots rights, communal or individual and its was only TC and Turks who did such things but it is bullshit and you know it. The simple truth is if you (GC leadership in period 63-74) had been truly committed to protecting all Cypriots human rights communal and individual and believed in the real objective of democracy and not sought to exploit the "tyranny of the majority" for you own ends - then what happened in Cyprus in 74 could never have happened as it did no matter how much TC might have wanted and strived for partition. This is a simple truth you are incapable of accepting but it remains true none the less.
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Re: 18%, Majority and Turkey!

Postby Sotos » Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:52 am

erolz66 wrote:
Sotos wrote:
erolz66 wrote:
Sotos wrote: How many of the developed ones have ethnic minority languages as official languages?


Belgium - German is an official language of Belgium and its spoke by 1% of the Belgium population as their first language.
Luxemburg - French is an official language (6% first language) , German is an official language (4% first language).

You want more ?

Oh and just to give you some context for the size of the TC community at 18% of Cypriot population (a part of the Cypriot population that by your own admission you would prefer to never have to see or talk too), the % of the UK population that is of non British ethnicity is 12.9%. So as a numerical minority the TC community is a larger % of the Cypriot population than ALL non British ethnic minorities combined are in the UK.


Most countries (including developed ones) don't have ethnic minority languages as official languages.


Many countries have minority languages as official languages. I gave you two examples to start with where minority languages are official languages and the % that speak these languages is vastly smaller than the TC community in Cyprus. That is just a fact.


"Many countries" doesn't equal "most countries". That is the fact. Another fact is that were Turks are the majority they do NOT allow such right to their minorities like Cyprus does.
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Re: 18%, Majority and Turkey!

Postby Sotos » Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:13 pm

erolz66 wrote:
Sotos wrote:And what I resent is having in Cyprus people who do not respect human rights and democracy and believe that they have a "right" to impose their minority views by force.


Look Sotos you cared nothing for human rights from 63-74 when an all GC RoC administration was violating Cypriots' human rights, individual and communal. Nor you do care for human rights when they say that as far as Greek Cypriots choose to define themselves as part of the unitary Greek people, then non Greek Cypriots who also have Cyprus as a homeland have a separate and equal right to self determination. You only 'believe' in human rights (individual and communal) when they benefit you. Nor do you believe in democracy as far as the objective and point of democracy is that people have an effective say in the decisions that control and shape their lives. What you actually believe in is 'tyranny of the majority'.

Yes you will scream and shout that the all GC RoC run administration did nothing illegal in the period 63-74, violated no Cypriots rights, communal or individual and its was only TC and Turks who did such things but it is bullshit and you know it. The simple truth is if you (GC leadership in period 63-74) had been truly committed to protecting all Cypriots human rights communal and individual and believed in the real objective of democracy and not sought to exploit the "tyranny of the majority" for you own ends - then what happened in Cyprus in 74 could never have happened as it did no matter how much TC might have wanted and strived for partition. This is a simple truth you are incapable of accepting but it remains true none the less.


What you say is a "simple truth" only for a simple Turk looking for excuses for the crimes you are commiting. Nothing of what we wanted for Cyprus was a violation of your human or minority rights. Even if you accepted EVERYTHING we proposed in 1963 not even a single of your human rights would be violated and as an ethnic minority you would still have more rights than most ethnic minorities and definitely way more rights than what minorities have in Turkey. There was nothing in what we proposed that would make Cyprus a "tyranny of the majority". We would simply implement a basic rule of democracy "Majority Rules", something which you never accepted and for which you started wars and conflicts in order to prevent. I wasn't born in 63-74 ... and yet you are trying to excuse crimes against every single Cypriot based on your own distorted version of 11 years of history... this when you have been committing massive atrocities against the Cypriot people almost non stop for more than 4 centuries!
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Re: 18%, Majority and Turkey!

Postby erolz66 » Tue Jul 01, 2014 2:35 pm

Sotos wrote: What you say is a "simple truth" only for a simple Turk looking for excuses for the crimes you are commiting.


Actually it is a simple truth of a CYPRIOT seeking to understand how and why we got in the mess we are in today.

Sotos wrote: Nothing of what we wanted for Cyprus was a violation of your human or minority rights.


No because seeking to impose the replacement of foreign rule by Britain with that of foreign rule by Greece on the TC community in their own homeland and with no regard for their wishes using means that included the use of illegal violence and terror against innocent civilians was in no way a violation of TC rights, individual or communal was it. You say stuff like the above and you accuse ME of trying to excuse 'our' crimes ?

Sotos wrote: Even if you accepted EVERYTHING we proposed in 1963 not even a single of your human rights would be violated and as an ethnic minority you would still have more rights than most ethnic minorities and definitely way more rights than what minorities have in Turkey.


If we had simply accepted your illegal unilateral removal of our rights under the signed 60's agreements then it would not have stopped there. The next stage would have been the forced imposition of the ending of our homeland existence as a sovereign nation state, the force imposition of us being made 'Muslim Greeks' unable to even identify ourselves as Turkish in our own homeland if we should wish too and a record on humans rights violations against us that would match those of other 'muslim Greeks' living under Greek rule from 63 to date (which are many and well documented).

Sotos wrote: There was nothing in what we proposed that would make Cyprus a "tyranny of the majority".


The pursuit of enosis without any regard for the wishes of the TC community in the name of a unitary Cypriot people is the definition of 'tyranny of the majority'. It is where a numerical majority seek to impose something on everyone that only benefits those in the numerical majority and harms those not in it. It has been recognised as a danger at least as far back as 1788 when John Adams coined the phrase and the classical means to guarding against such tyranny in democracies are things like constitutional limits and separation of powers , which is why the GC leadership having failed to secure enosis prior to 60 promptly went about dismantling these protections so it could impose enosis via a tyranny of the majority without restriction or limit. It is a text book example. Declare the constitution invalid, unilaterally and illegally alter it to remove any limits and destroy the separation of powers by simply refusing (again illegally) the authority of court to limit the executives excesses.

Sotos wrote: We would simply implement a basic rule of democracy "Majority Rules", something which you never accepted and for which you started wars and conflicts in order to prevent. I wasn't born in 63-74 ... and yet you are trying to excuse crimes against every single Cypriot based on your own distorted version of 11 years of history... this when you have been committing massive atrocities against the Cypriot people almost non stop for more than 4 centuries!


I am not trying to excuse ANYTHİNG I am trying to get you to understand how and why views like

'the GC community, pursuing purely Greek not Cypriot objectives had every right to impose on TC the most fundamental of decisions about their own shared homeland, like if it would exist as a state at all and what nationality they would be and if they would be ruled from Cyprus by Cypriots or from Greece by Greeks in their own homeland, with no regards for TC communal wishes at all and that TC had no other right than to just accept this imposition of Greek (not Cypriot) desires on them in their own homeland because they were (choose from any as u like) numerically smaller, not 'true' Cypriots, or ex colonial invaders'

are not only the kind of views that got us in the mess we are in today they are also the views that stop us from solving the mess we are in today. As long as you believe that you had the right to impose enosis on the TC community with no regard for their communal wishes and TC had nor right to resist such imposition on them in their own homeland then the problem will continue.
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Re: 18%, Majority and Turkey!

Postby Nikitas » Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:47 pm

Patience! Soon we will see the principles on which Turkey's promoted solution to the Kurdish problem is based. From that we will be able to draw valuable inferences. We will see if Kurdish will be an officia llanguage, ie the one spoken in parliament and the courts.

The proportion of territory ceded to the Kurds, along with the degree of autonomy, self rule, veto powers, and all that stuff that we are messing with.
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