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Cyprus' Sister Island - Greek Heroics on Rhodes

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Re: Cyprus' Sister Island - Greek Heroics on Rhodes

Postby supporttheunderdog » Mon Feb 29, 2016 3:29 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:We have one person clearly taking comments from one date and retroactively using them for matters arising at a later date and we have another one posting random documents with words left out and ignoring whole joint/sister documents that present the WHOLE picture of the Schengen area evaluation and yet still ignoring the realpolitik of what is recommended and what is actually DONE!

This is what you both do - this is what you both always do.

That's enough!

I've been through it with you before - and you are just flailing because of how wrong you have been in your evaluations!


I have openly invited you provide other EU documents (and the links thereto) which support your case which invitation includes the
whole joint/sister documents
that you here mention, I otherwise invite you to quote the the alleged random documents in full, identifying the words missed out and explaining how those words missed out materially affect either of our respective positions. I do not think anything material is missing

However as is usual you do not respond in such a constructive and rational manner by supporting your arguments with verifiable evidence, as I (and Erolz) have done, but you make bald unsubstantiated assertions, which I doubt anyone here will now believe, bearing in mind your total inability to support anything you have said to date, and where, for example, you are the one who has been guilty of retroactively taking documents, such as the 8th Biannual Assessment here http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/e-library/documents/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/docs/eighth_biannual_report_on_the_functioning_of_the_schengen_area_en.pdf and seeking to argue that this is the Evalaution report on Greece, when on its own terms it was not, as the report was not then completed.
An unannounced visit was carried out in November to the Greek-Turkish land border as well as to the sea border (Chios and Samos). Additional efforts are required with regard to the actual return of irregular migrants and prevention of secondary movements.
The conclusions of the two visits are currently being finalised at the expert level . The Commission will continue monitoring the situation closely, including the evolving situation at the border between Greece and the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. The potential for this border to become a source of tension has been intensified including by the erection of border fencing as a border management tool, and the decision by the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to follow the decision of other countries and restrict passage on the grounds of nationality or the little engagement in bilateral border-related confidence building measures, although day-to-day contacts between the border administrations have improved.
On 3 December an agreement was reached that Frontex will assist Greece with identification and registration of migrants at the border between Greece and the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.
Depending on the results of the aforementioned Schengen evaluations, specific measures as referred in Article 19a SBC may be recommended.
[b]Should an evaluated Member State be found to be seriously neglecting its obligations and progress in rectifying the situation is insufficient, the use of Article 26 SBC (as described in section 2.2 of this report) can be invoked that implies reintroducing border control at internal borders where the overall functioning of the Schengen area is put at risk.



Then we have your repeated (incorrect) Bland (unsupported) assertion that
The external borders are a joint responsibility!
when from the regulations I have quoted and cited that is not the case. Again I invite you to point us at the laws and regulations that set out what the Joint responsibility is?

The primary responsibility of the member states can be found here http://frontex.europa.eu/assets/Legal_basis/frontex_regulation_en.pdf and here http://frontex.europa.eu/assets/About_Frontex/frontex_amended_regulation_2011.pdf . I consider the position is illustrated by the requirement for Greece and Greece alone, NOT FRONTEX or Other members states, to take action to remedy the problems of its borders.

However back to the alleged Randomness - that too is a a typical disinformation trick of yours, when the documents are in fact sequential and concern only the Evaluation visit to Greece and record the stages of a progress through a process , from a remark that as of 15th December the Evaluation report on Greece was
currently being finalised at the expert level
, but then by 27th Jan had reached the commission, by 3rd Feb had been adopted by the commission for passing to the Council, and by 12th Had been considered by the council, with 50 recommendations than being announced.

Nothing could be much less random. And I have fully provided links so my case can be assessed by reference to the evidence.

So please, set out your case in clear and cogent manner, quoting from and providing links to the evidence you reply upon.

The longer you do not do so the further you sink
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Re: Cyprus' Sister Island - Greek Heroics on Rhodes

Postby supporttheunderdog » Mon Feb 29, 2016 11:01 pm

Hi Erolz,
How much longer do I need to hold my breath waiting for "g"IG to reply?

I did not think it would take her so long to do so, as I would have thought that from the way she so dogmatically refered to other papers, which supposedly prove us wrong , that she had the quotes and links already to cut and paste in to some sort of logical and rational devasting reply.
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Re: Cyprus' Sister Island - Greek Heroics on Rhodes

Postby erolz66 » Mon Feb 29, 2016 11:08 pm

She can not reply, if by reply you mean actually address the issues you and I have raised, as we both know. Not without having to admit that she was so wrong on so many points so consistently repeated over and over and over. She will either just try to ignore or go back to distraction or distortion or diversion (probably with a good sprinkling of ad hominem attacks as well).

This is what she does. This is what she has always done on this forum.
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Re: Cyprus' Sister Island - Greek Heroics on Rhodes

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Mon Feb 29, 2016 11:46 pm

I've already dispelled all your lies. Document after meaningless document - that you've chopped and changed, regardless of date, time and reason.

Close your eyes to what is happening because you prefer misinterpreting partial documents.

However, that is what you do - what you always do here - both of you lie. And you're boring as hell.

Truth is far more interesting than your lies. Your lies are a repetitious bore.

(I also think you are shit at evaluating documents.)
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Re: Cyprus' Sister Island - Greek Heroics on Rhodes

Postby erolz66 » Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:03 am

GreekIslandGirl wrote:I've already dispelled all your lies......


Looks like I was right then with

She will either just try to ignore or go back to distraction or distortion or diversion (probably with a good sprinkling of ad hominem attacks as well).


One single question about one single EU Council implementing decision - and you can not answer it can you GiG ?

erolz66 wrote:Did the Council of the European Union, in it's Implementing Decision of the 12 February 5985/16 base it's decision on an evaluation report that was NOT critical of Greece and that criticised other countries more than Greece, or on an evaluation report that WAS critical of Greece and was only about Greece ?


Why can you not answer this simple question GiG ? If you are so good at dispelling other peoples lies, as you claim, again regardless of any and all actual evidence, then why can you not answer this simple question ?

Same old same old.
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Re: Cyprus' Sister Island - Greek Heroics on Rhodes

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:33 am

The 8th biannual evaluation that this is all based on states this about Greece:

The dramatically increased number of arrivals has put the border control and asylum systems of the countries concerned under extreme pressure. In response to this situation, the Commission introduced the ‘hotspot’ approach, which provides a platform to allow the EU agencies to assist the frontline Member States in registering, screening and debriefing incoming migrants quickly, to help with the asylum procedures and to coordinate the return operations. Italy and Greece are the first two Member States where this approach is being implemented3. The Commission has also sent its own personnel to both Member States to provide practical coordination and support. The Migration Management Support Teams active at the 'hotspots' rely on the Member States' contributions via Frontex' and EASO's calls for experts and equipment in an appropriate manner.
Following the proposals of the Commission the Council in September has agreed on relocation of 160 000 applicants in clear need of international protection from Italy, Greece and possibly other Member States directly affected by the refugee crisis.4 Full implementation of the relocation mechanism, alongside the roll-out of 'hotspots', should alleviate the pressuron these countries. In addition to the ongoing Frontex joint operations — Triton (hosted by Italy) and Poseidon Sea (hosted by Greece), to which the financial allocation has been trippled to enable reinforcing their surveillance and rescue capacity — the EU launched a Common Security and Defence Policy operation in the southern central Mediterranean on 22 June. This operation aims specifically at disrupting the business model of human smuggling and trafficking networks.
Furthermore, Member States faced with a situation of urgent and exceptional pressure may request the assistance of the Rapid Border Intervention Teams (RABITs) provided in the Frontex Regulation. On 3 December, Greece submitted such a formal request to Frontex for the deployment of a Rapid Border Intervention Team operation to provide immediate border guard support at its external border in the Aegean islands. On 10 December Frontex took the necessary decisions to launch this operation and to immediately agree on the operational plan with the Greek Authorities within the same operational area as Poseidon Sea.


This is what has been implemented! More help for Greece!

But you will keep harping about scraps of paper that have by and large been IGNORED in favour of common sense - something you both lack!
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Re: Cyprus' Sister Island - Greek Heroics on Rhodes

Postby Lordo » Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:46 am

you what dear?

come again.
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Re: Cyprus' Sister Island - Greek Heroics on Rhodes

Postby erolz66 » Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:50 am

GreekIslandGirl wrote:The 8th biannual evaluation that this is all based on states this about Greece:


Only according to YOU. According to any other same person in the world AND the EU Council itself - the people who actually made the implementing decision - their decision was based on an entirely different document as can be explicitly seen from the actual decision itself. You can not even get the name of the document you falsely claim this is all about correct - there is no EU Document titled "The 8th biannual evaluation". There is only one called Eighth biannual report on the functioning of the Schengen area 1 May - 10 December 2015

GreekIslandGirl wrote:But you will keep harping about scraps of paper that have by and large been IGNORED in favour of common sense - something you both lack!


Below is not a 'scrap of paper that has been ignored'. Below is a Council of the European Union Implementing Decision. An official EU policy decision from the highest policy ratifying body within the entire EU.

Council of the European Union Implementing Decision of the 12 February 5985/16

One single question about one single EU Council implementing decision - and you can not answer it can you GiG ?

erolz66 wrote:Did the Council of the European Union, in it's Implementing Decision of the 12 February 5985/16 base it's decision on an evaluation report that was NOT critical of Greece and that criticised other countries more than Greece, or on an evaluation report that WAS critical of Greece and was only about Greece ?
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Re: Cyprus' Sister Island - Greek Heroics on Rhodes

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Wed Mar 16, 2016 10:21 pm

erolz66 wrote:One single question about one single EU Council implementing decision - and you can not answer it can you GiG ?


What a joke erolz and stud's stances were! Their unprecedented cries to 'criticisms of Greece'. Calls for 'sanctions' and 'expulsion' of Greece. All for what?

Those ideologies were ill-placed then and they are soooooooooooo wrong now! :roll:

http://famagusta-gazette.com/refugee-cr ... 037-69.htm
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Re: Cyprus' Sister Island - Greek Heroics on Rhodes

Postby supporttheunderdog » Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:42 pm

GIG! You are a lying twisting worm. Your last is just so typical of your complete denial of reilaity and the La la land you live in - Greece can do no wrong? Bollocks! They fucked up and probably did not know how bad till the EU came in.

Our stance is so right because as both Erolz and I have pointed out, under an EU implementing decision Greece has been obliged to take measures and the fact that Greece has been offered help (because of the magnitude of the crises) does not take away from that decision taken... but no Greece can do no wrong....

Fact- The EU bodies carried out unannounced decisions between 10th and 13th November - It was only after this (3rd December) that Greece asked Frontex for help - where Frontex must be currently be asked before it can intervene - and where Greece Probably asked when it realised the enormity of its position or possibly had it pointed out to them by those involved in the November inspections - and I am not misusing enormity in the sense of magnitude or size -

Fact - when the 8th Biennial report on the functioning of Schengen was releasedhttp://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/e-library/documents/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/docs/eighth_biannual_report_on_the_functioning_of_the_schengen_area_en.pdf - a document you have consistently misquoted from - Greece was not openly criticised but only because the report of the November inspections was still under technical review -
An unannounced visit was carried out in November to the Greek-Turkish land border as well as to the sea border (Chios and Samos). Additional efforts are required with regard to the actual return of irregular migrants and prevention of secondary movements.
The conclusions of the two visits are currently being finalised at the expert level

warnings were issued that depending on what the inspections found - and the results were not then in - under art 19B and 26 Actions might be taken starting with the possible requirements to take steps - as covered by the implementing decision and if those did not work to be supplemented by possible temporary reimposition of border controls with other EU countries - either in part or in full.
Depending on the results of the aforementioned Schengen evaluations, specific measures as referred in Article 19a SBC may be recommended.
Should an evaluated Member State be found to be seriously neglecting its obligations and progress in rectifying the situation is insufficient, the use of Article 26 SBC (as described in section 2.2 of this report) can be invoked that implies reintroducing border control at internal borders where the overall functioning of the Schengen area is put at risk.

However you seek to deny this relaity despite the overwhelming evidence and maintain Greece has has done no wrong and was NOT under threat - she was and is -

Fact - on 27th January as reported here http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-174_en.htm
The College of Commissioners has today, in view of the findings and their significance, taken note and discussed a draft Schengen Evaluation Report on Greece.
- as commented upon
The report shows that there are serious deficiencies in the management of the external border in Greece.
and
The Eighth bi-annual report on the functioning of the Schengen area of 15 December 2015 already announced that, depending on the results of the Schengen evaluations in Greece, specific measures as referred to in Article 19a and 26 of the Schengen Borders Code may be recommended.


This was not as you sought to mendaciously assert a discussion document but rather a document about a discussion- though I am not sure you are clever enough to understand the difference - that or as usual you are lying;
Fact - on 2nd February the Commission accepted the report and passed it the council as reported here http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-211_en.htm
As that document reported -
Following a positive opinion by the Schengen evaluation committee on Friday, the College of Commissioners has today adopted the Schengen Evaluation Report on Greece and a proposal for a Council Recommendation on addressing the serious deficiencies identified in the evaluation report on the application of Schengen rules in the field of management of the external borders by Greece. The recommendations will be submitted to the Council for adoption.

and
Migration, Home Affairs and Citizenship Commissioner Dimitris Avramopoulos said: "Our ability to maintain an area free of internal border controls depends on our ability to effectively manage our external borders. Today we are proposing a set of recommendations to ensure that, at all external borders of Greece, controls are carried out and brought in line with Schengen rules. At the same time, we take note of the efforts of the Greek Authorities to improve the situation and are reminding that all parts of the Commission's comprehensive plan need to be applied to face the unprecedented pressure at Europe's external borders. The objective of the European Commission and of the Member States is to safeguard and strengthen Schengen. We will only save Schengen by applying Schengen."
The recommendations seek to ensure that Greece applies all Schengen rules related to management of external border correctly and effectively. Recommendations are made in a number of areas such as the improvement of the registration procedures, including ensuring a sufficient number of staff and fingerprint scanners for registration and verification of migrants and their travel documents against SIS, Interpol and national databases. Greece should provide the necessary facilities for accommodation during the registration process and launch return procedures for irregular migrants who are not seeking asylum and who are not in need of international protection. Border surveillance should be improved, including the establishment of a risk analysis system and increased training of border guards. Improvements should also be made to infrastructure and equipment at the border crossing points.
In order to ensure compliance with these recommendations, the Commission may, in addition, recommend that Greece takes certain specific measures under Article 19a of the Schengen Borders Code, given the serious deficiencies noted in the Schengen Evaluation Report.
and
If a Schengen Evaluation Report concludes that the evaluated Member State is "seriously neglecting its obligations under the Schengen rules" and if there are "serious deficiencies in the carrying out of external border control", the Commission can propose recommendations, to be adopted by the Council, for remedial action to address any deficiencies identified during the evaluation. In order to ensure compliance with these recommendations, the Commission may, under Article 19a of the Schengen Borders Code, recommend that the evaluated Member State take certain specific measures, which may include the deployment of European border guard teams or the submission of a strategic plan setting out how the Member State will deploy its own personnel and equipment to address the concerns. The Commission's proposals must be adopted by a Committee of the Member States, acting by qualified majority. The evaluated Member State then has three months to complete the remedial actions.
Where, after three months from the adoption of the Council recommendations, serious deficiencies persist and the measures taken have not proved sufficient to ensure the adequate remedy of these deficiencies, the Commission may trigger the application of the procedure provided for in Article 26 of the Schengen Borders Code.
Under Article 26 of the Schengen Borders Code, if the measures under Article 19a have not been effective, the Council may, based on a proposal from Commission, recommend that one or more Member States reintroduce border controls at all or at specific parts of their internal borders as a matter of last resort, to protect the common interest of the Schengen area. The Council recommendation needs to be adopted by qualified majority.
Under Article 26, and in the exceptional circumstances described above, controls can be reintroduced for a period of up to six months. This measure can be prolonged for additional six month periods up to a maximum duration of two years.

The threat of having to reintroduce border controls for travel between Greece and other EU states, unless improvements occurred, was repeated -

Fact- on 12th Feb the Council issued an order reported here http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2016/02/12-schengen-evaluation-of-greece/ and found here - http://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-5985-2016-INIT/en/pdf

This is in part what it says
(3) The on-site visit carried out from 10 to 13 November 2015 revealed serious deficiencies in the carrying out of external border control by Greece, in particular due to the lack of appropriate identification and registration of irregular migrants at the islands, of sufficient staff, and of sufficient equipment for verifying identity documents. Under the current circumstances, situational awareness and reaction capability are not sufficient for efficient border surveillance. These serious deficiencies relating to external border control constitute a serious threat to public policy and internal security and put at risk the overall functioning of the area without internal border control.
(4) The serious deficiencies referred to represent, as far as the carrying out of external border controls is concerned, a situation where the obligations referred to in rticle 16(1) and (4) of Regulation (EU) No 1053/2013 have not been met.
(5) While it is acknowledged that Greece is under unprecedented pressure through the high number of persons arriving, an adequate functioning of the identification, registration and reception is indispensable given the subsequent secondary movements to other Member States which have led several Member States to reintroduce temporary border controls at their internal borders and which puts the functioning of the whole Schengen area at risk.

yet Greece has done no wrong?

The Following now apply to Greece http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-585_en.htm
March 2016 at the latest: Greece provides its action plan to implement the recommendations made by the Council, together with a needs assessment.
12 April 2016 at the latest: the Commission presents its assessment of the adequacy of the action plan prepared by Greece.
11-17 April 2016: a Schengen evaluation by Commission and Member State experts of air, land and sea borders of Greece will take place.
12 May 2016 at the latest: Greece reports on the implementation of the Council recommendations.
12 May 2016: if the serious deficiencies in external border control were to persist, the Commission will present a proposal under Article 26(2) of the Schengen Borders Code.


The FG article is not even en pointe about the "serious deficiencies" in border control but to address the probems arising from those who got in, possibly unchecked, and have not been able to get out - as it says -
The emergency support mechanism has been set up to help Greece and other member states address the humanitarian needs of the large numbers of men, women and children currently seeking asylum.

The aid is aimed at alleviating their basic needs -- water, food, medicine, and shelter -- and will be provided by the European Commission or partner organizations like UNHCR or NGOs.

And that is a different issue - which in your usual manner you seek to mendaciously use to divert attention from the reality of the serious deficiencies, the utter liar that you are.

It however is as shown above not me or Erolz who are criticizing Greece and threatening the sanction of having to reimpose border controls but the EU - all outlined above in official EU papers which you cannot so easily dismiss.
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