Cyprus-Forum.com

[Paphitis]

As for your post Robin Hood... eisai enas kalamaras faflatas!

Tsie sou Rossobontoui!

[Nikitas]

"This is how nations make money by being inventive "

Aristos Doxiadis, world renowned economist and venture capital manager gives an interesting instant of this.

When he was an adviser at the ministry of finance he hosted an American colleague and the talk was about innovation and economic growth. What to do was the Greek query.

The American pointed out the coffe man delivering coffees in the suspended tray that allowed him to tackle the stairs without spilling the drinks. "That is innovation, that is what you need to build on, do not underrate the small things" said the American. The Greeks thought he was being contemptuous, they could not understand the value of local innovation.

We are still there. Left and proggressive talk notwithstanding, the Greek ruling mob is incredibly conservative in outlook.

[Robin Hood]

I am sorry but to say the idea of money created out of nothing by commercial banks is invalid, is just not true.

What you’re claiming is no different to a government printing money with no regard for the standing of its currency on the international market because whether you’re increasing figures in software at the central bank or printing it on paper makes no difference... the devaluation is certain.

You have no clue mate.

Some countries deliberately devalue. I remember when you were poking fun at the devalued AUD but that accelerated growth to 3.5%

Australia has not long ago become an internationally traded currency, along with Canada. Now markets will decide the value of the AUD and the option to decide to devalue is no longer an option. The markets now control the value AUD against other currencies .... not the Government.

[Pyrpolizer]

Pyroliser:

I was always wondering where you base your belief that Bankers make money from thin air.
So... it was from the 18th century events when the Rothchilds created the first Banks in the US ...
Yes, we know that's what was happening back then, and how fast the States themselves realized what was going on and got control.
Since then, things have changed a lot. I am sorry but your belief is today invalid.

It is not belief or as some would have it, a conspiracy theory, and those comments are as valid today as they were then, in fact thanks to computers they are even more valid!

Yes things have changed but not for the better. Just last year the Bank of England produced a bulletin called ‘The Creation of Money in the Modern Economy’ (BoE Q1 Bulletin 2014) which, as far as money goes, describes in detail how the banks do it. In brief; making loans by creating debt creates new money; repayment of debt destroys money; banks do not act as intermediaries between lender and borrower; banks do need deposits to make loans. Like all things, it’s simple when you know how.

The US never got control of banking and the money supply, they lost control when The Federal Reserve Bank was created in 1913, a Bank which is owned by bankers and is neither Federal nor a reserve, but there are those that still believe the FED is a State owned institution.

What I find intriguing is that those who don’t believe this to be true never provide an account to explain how money is created as they understand it. A simple example: If Governments created all money (as some believe)......... why do Governments borrow money from commercial banks? Some also believe that the money banks lend is the depositor’s money but cannot explain how they can then lend many times more than they have on deposit.

If you look at each of those quotes, it explains exactly what has happened to Greece. No doubt successive Governments squandered the easy money but behind that is a very sinister story. Why would banks lend money to an individual or a Government knowing that the odds were they would not repay it? Take note of what Jefferson said ...... that happened to the Greeks yesterday! In exchange for another loan of 'money' that banks will create as debt, Greece sells off its wealth and the people will pay for generations to come .... in fact they will never repay it!!!!

I am sorry but to say the idea of money created out of nothing by commercial banks is invalid, is just not true.

Imo you are mixing up terms that lead to false conclusions.
The banks the Rothchilds created a few centuries ago was indeed a pyramid system that was creating money out of nothing.
Now let's come to today's situation. First of all we have to separate some basic issues:
a)Money printed in notes/cut in coins by Governments plus electronic money: This is just one of the means for exchanging wealth/goods/services.
b)Wealth established by work
c)Goods and services established by work exchangeable/consumable daily without adding to wealth

Basically everybody produces wealth (not money) every day by doing some work.Part of it gets packed up e.g by becoming buildings, machines, roads, orchards etc So basically in a country we (normally) have a constant rise of wealth. Does this mean we have a constant increase of money? Does it mean we create money out of nothing?

Now let's come to what the Banks do. Someone puts already accumulated wealth e.g a building as mortgage and gets a loan. You said that at that point the Bank creates dept and that produces money out of nothing. Not at all! It just puts existing wealth into the already existing money flow/chain.And that's hat the Banks actually do, they push the flow of money. They don't create money. They don't even create wealth.
At some point the guy who got the loan will pay it back probably own a 2nd building (2 times the original wealth) and set both buildings to idle state for as long as he pleases. It is true that during this process the Govnt may need to print some extra cash to facilitate transactions but that will only be a very small fraction of the guy's loan.
The Bank simply profits from the difference between credit and debit interest rates.

I have to repeat that the notion that Banks create money (for themselves) out of nothing is a fallacy, based on what the Rothchild Banks were doing a few centuries ago.

[miltiades]

Let us hope that Greece has learned a bitter lesson and that amends will be made so that in 3 years time it will look back and feel proud that the hard times are behind.

Nikitas has given us all an insight into Greek politics and attitudes and I have learned a great deal from his posts.

I have never wished the Greeks anything but the very best, but I can honestly say that I cant help thinking that Cyprus is so much better off keeping a realistic distance from our cousins and totally embrace Cyprus as our only true motherland.

[Pyrpolizer]

A Government prints note and coin ....all governments that is, that have a sovereign currency, This is 2% created by Government from nothing just like that created electronically by the banks (97-98%) but there is one significant difference! Government money is spent into the economy by government and, as it is not borrowed, there is no debt created, no repayment and no interest to pay.

Governments also accumulate wealth like citizens do.When too many citizens choose to put their wealth into the money flow/chain the Government needs to print some tiny portion of new money to facilitate everyday transactions.Hence the Govent does exactly the same as the citizens do. The difference is that the Government doesn't cash her wealth she just reduces it's value. If she prints new money all the time to cover her expenses then not only the value of her own wealth will drop dramatically she will create a million problems to the value of the wealth accumulated by citizens as well.

[Pyrpolizer]

Let us hope that Greece has learned a bitter lesson and that amends will be made so that in 3 years time it will look back and feel proud that the hard times are behind.

Nikitas has given us all an insight into Greek politics and attitudes and I have learned a great deal from his posts.

I have never wished the Greeks anything but the very best, but I can honestly say that I cant help thinking that Cyprus is so much better off keeping a realistic distance from our cousins and totally embrace Cyprus as our only true motherland.

We are not doing much better than them Milti.We are simply good boys abiding to everything. Don't listen to the government propaganda.Keep an eye and watch them telling us every year that we will get out of the crisis and have development. Bollocks.
If you look at the economic statistics our curves are identical to those of Greece.
Sure the Government here survived due to heavy taxation however the problem here was never the Government finances. It was and still is the Banks. 68% of Co-op's loans are still non performing. Marios Klerides the real genius, the one and only guy in Cyprus who stood up and declined approving the purchasing of Greek bonds in the past, hence saved Cy's Hellenic bank from bankruptcy, moved to Co-op a couple of years ago. He just resigned. Ask yourself why.

[Paphitis]

I am sorry but to say the idea of money created out of nothing by commercial banks is invalid, is just not true.

What you’re claiming is no different to a government printing money with no regard for the standing of its currency on the international market because whether you’re increasing figures in software at the central bank or printing it on paper makes no difference... the devaluation is certain.

You have no clue mate.

Some countries deliberately devalue. I remember when you were poking fun at the devalued AUD but that accelerated growth to 3.5%

Australia has not long ago become an internationally traded currency, along with Canada. Now markets will decide the value of the AUD and the option to decide to devalue is no longer an option. The markets now control the value AUD against other currencies .... not the Government.

That's not true. They have some control.

The AUD was floated in the early 80s btw.

To a certain extent, the AUD is linked to international resource prices, in particular, Oil, Natural Gas, Coal, Iron, and Gold. If these go up, the AUD also goes up and if they go down, the AUD goes down. As such, the AUD is considered a safe haven currency because it is linked to the price of Gold.

It's beneficial for Australia that these commodity prices in particular are high and not low. However, a high AUD is not good for the Australian Economy as it hurts farmers, manufacturing and trade.

So what can the Central Bank do. Well, they meat every month and can manipulate the AUD upwards and downwards. If they cut interest rates, the AUD falls and the opposite occurs when they raise interest rates. When they meet, they usually release a statement that the have cut interest rates to either stimulate, devalue (yes they actually state it) or raise interest rates to slow the economy (I kid you not). Apparently, the over heating economy is not good for them either.

[miltiades]

The " historic" OXI has now been translated to an"historic" YES !!!

" Greek MPs have approved tough economic measures required to enable an €86bn eurozone bailout deal to go ahead."

Tsipras had no option but to urge and plead with the Greek Parliament to accept the terms of the bailout, Greece
had absolutely no choice, either accept or go bust. Politically but most importantly economically the road ahead is going to be a difficult one.
"Two hundred and twenty nine lawmakers voted Yes, 64 voted No and six abstained. Half of the No votes came from the governing Syriza party."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33535205

[Robin Hood]

A Government prints note and coin ....all governments that is, that have a sovereign currency, This is 2% created by Government from nothing just like that created electronically by the banks (97-98%) but there is one significant difference! Government money is spent into the economy by government and, as it is not borrowed, there is no debt created, no repayment and no interest to pay.

Governments also accumulate wealth like citizens do. When too many citizens choose to put their wealth into the money flow/chain the Government needs to print some tiny portion of new money to facilitate everyday transactions.Hence the Govent does exactly the same as the citizens do. The difference is that the Government doesn't cash her wealth she just reduces it's value. If she prints new money all the time to cover her expenses then not only the value of her own wealth will drop dramatically she will create a million problems to the value of the wealth accumulated by citizens as well.

You are confusing wealth with money! They are not the same thing. Wealth can be converted to money and money to wealth ..... but that is the only connection.