Cyprus-Forum.com

[GreekIslandGirl]

I agree that intentional killings are not forgivable - but under the circumstances of 1950s and early 1960s, GCs were still fighting for freedom and democracy for Cyprus and were by and large opposed by TCs and their leaders. The GCs were put into a position of defending their homeland against attack from Turkey, TMT and accomplice TCs.

In 1964 a numerically dominant GC population, in effective dominant control of all the organs of the state, did not need bands of armed illegal militia, acting with impunity to carry out extra judicial revenge killing of ordinary TC, like that of my Uncle, in ratios of 10 or more to 1 for every GC killed, in order to defending their homeland against attack from Turkey, TMT and accomplice TC. The suggestion they did is to me absurd and an nothing more than an attempt to 'wash clean' the hands of those GC that did these things in this period as part of a wider propaganda based narrative. The reality is, imo, acts such as these did nothing to protect ordinary GC at all and actually increased the only real danger and risk to the GC community in Cyprus at that time, that of military action by Turkey in Cyprus.

For such a small minority, the TCs managed to kill a hell of a lot of GCs. You'll find that if the GCs were proportionally as murderous as the TCs, there would have been tens if not hundreds more deaths.

[erolz66]

I will take this opportunity, though, to say how deeply sorry I am that Erolz's family suffered along with so many others, from something that should never have happened, ....

The suffering is ongoing. It is less but not gone entirely. The final return of his body to his family helped considerably in reducing that ongoing pain. As does, in it's own small way, your simple words above, ignoring the 'caveat' you placed at the end of your words, that I have left out when quoting them above.

So for that and regardless of all that has gone on between us here in the past, I thank you.

[GreekIslandGirl]

I will take this opportunity, though, to say how deeply sorry I am that Erolz's family suffered along with so many others, from something that should never have happened, ....

The suffering is ongoing. It is less but not gone entirely. The final return of his body to his family helped considerably in reducing that ongoing pain. As does, in it's own small way, your simple words above, ignoring the 'caveat' you placed at the end of your words, that I have left out when quoting them above.

So for that and regardless of all that has gone on between us here in the past, I thank you.

I'm deeply sorry.

(No caveats, provisos, ifs or buts. Other than, for all it's worth.)

[erolz66]

For such a small minority, the TCs managed to kill a hell of a lot of GCs. You'll find that if the GCs were proportionally as murderous as the TCs, there would have been tens if not hundreds more deaths.

I suggest you need to check your figures for how such things were in 1964. I could give you a link to a thorough and meticulous independent study of the events of that period that includes the specific events of the 11th May 1964 that lead to the murder of my Uncle , where the killing of 2 Greek officers and a Greek-Cypriot policeman in turn led to 'probably 32 to 35 Turk-Cypriots being abducted and executed as a reprisal for the deaths of these three men.'

What I really want to say however is this.

My truth, my reality, is that Turkish Cypriots did illegal,unspeakable, horrendous, evil things to innocent Greek Cypriots and Greek Cypriots did illegal,unspeakable, horrendous, evil things to innocent Turkish Cypriots. That we did these things either in the name of the division of Cyprus or in the name of the non existence of Cyprus as a nation and state entirely. Both sides have 'blood on their hands'. Both sides were victims. Both sides were perpetrator. My reality is that I no longer care who was the 'worst' perpetrator or who was the 'first' perpetrator. For my belief now, after I have personaly argued these things for more than 8 years here, and 'we' as communities have been doing doing so for more than 60, is that there can be no benefit, no gain, to any Cypriot any more in trying to 'prove' over and over that 'their' side was the victim, the other side the 'perpetrator', or mostly the victim or more the victim. My belief is that such efforts can only perpetuate and sustain the state Cyprus is in today. That such efforts can not solve or heal or improve that situation. I do not want to be a 'sustainer' of where Cyprus is today. I want to be a 'changer' of where Cyprus is today, but I can not do this alone.

[erolz66]

I'm deeply sorry.

Thank you.

for all it's worth

The value . the worth, of those simple words is immense to me. I suspect and hope they have a wider worth than just to me, that is even greater still.

[Pyrpolizer]

The core of the TMT was only about 1000 persons in a population of about 120K.
After 1963 nearly every TC village or ghetto area had a resident General from Turkey controlling the place and it's TMT officers.
This doesn't mean the majority of TCs were anything but ordinary people.
There have been crimes against ordinary TCs, and they were intentional and in many cases planned..
They are not forgivable and the GCs were not as innocent as GIG thinks they were.

I agree that intentional killings are not forgivable - but under the circumstances of 1950s and early 1960s, GCs were still fighting for freedom and democracy for Cyprus and were by and large opposed by TCs and their leaders. The GCs were put into a position of defending their homeland against attack from Turkey, TMT and accomplice TCs.

These are our EXCUSES just like Turkey poses her own EXCUSES for invading Cyprus genociding the Armenians, today killing the Kurds etc.
Excuses are just excuses by my standards, the crimes themselves are not forgivable (again by my own standards).
Besides one's freedom ENDS where someone else's rights BEGIN.

NB. when I say "our" I mean those people who did those crimes. The vast majority of GCs like the vast majority of TCs had nothing to do with it.
Unfortunately we all pay for the crimes of others collectively, that's the sad historical truth...

[Pyrpolizer]

I will take this opportunity, though, to say how deeply sorry I am that Erolz's family suffered along with so many others, from something that should never have happened, that was preventable if we all accepted democracy.

Well done GIG.
Next step should be to stop getting your bitterness out on Erolz. You are just fighting the wrong person my dear. It's just like getting it out on Kikapu, or Bir... wrong-wrong-wrong.

[Pyrpolizer]

The core of the TMT was only about 1000 persons in a population of about 120K.
After 1963 nearly every TC village or ghetto area had a resident General from Turkey controlling the place and it's TMT officers.
This doesn't mean the majority of TCs were anything but ordinary people.
There have been crimes against ordinary TCs, and they were intentional and in many cases planned..
They are not forgivable and the GCs were not as innocent as GIG thinks they were.

GiG never claimed that the GCs were angels, she stated clearly they were fighting an aggressor that invaded killed and usurped our country. TCs are also as guilty as sin and to portrait them as victims is just f disgusting. Next time you want to go buy you cheap knock offs on the other side, throw them a few pennies from me as compensation.

Tell us Pyro, how many TCs were killed against how many GCs were. I am not saying two wrongs make a right, but just who is the victim here. So Erolz uncle got killed so what about the innocent GCs that were also murdered in a similar manner. What about the missing 1600 GC men and boys or are we to put Erolz uncle above them???

TCs talk with a double forked tongue, just be careful you don't get caught in their web.

I should add that when the TCs own up to their own failings and treachery I might just show them some respect. But I won't hold my breath based on what get said on here.

I never suggested the TCs or Turkey were innocent. I have the exact numbers of all people killed during the period from 1958 to before 1974, and the numbers are about the same for GCs and TCs so i disagree with Erolz that the ratio was 1:10
My point is nobody was innocent in this. Furthermore I AM NOT BUYING the myth that from 1960-1974 the GCs were fighting for freedom.

[GreekIslandGirl]

The core of the TMT was only about 1000 persons in a population of about 120K.
After 1963 nearly every TC village or ghetto area had a resident General from Turkey controlling the place and it's TMT officers.
This doesn't mean the majority of TCs were anything but ordinary people.
There have been crimes against ordinary TCs, and they were intentional and in many cases planned..
They are not forgivable and the GCs were not as innocent as GIG thinks they were.

GiG never claimed that the GCs were angels, she stated clearly they were fighting an aggressor that invaded killed and usurped our country. TCs are also as guilty as sin and to portrait them as victims is just f disgusting. Next time you want to go buy you cheap knock offs on the other side, throw them a few pennies from me as compensation.

Tell us Pyro, how many TCs were killed against how many GCs were. I am not saying two wrongs make a right, but just who is the victim here. So Erolz uncle got killed so what about the innocent GCs that were also murdered in a similar manner. What about the missing 1600 GC men and boys or are we to put Erolz uncle above them???

TCs talk with a double forked tongue, just be careful you don't get caught in their web.

I should add that when the TCs own up to their own failings and treachery I might just show them some respect. But I won't hold my breath based on what get said on here.

I never suggested the TCs or Turkey were innocent. I have the exact numbers of all people killed during the period from 1958 to before 1974, and the numbers are about the same for GCs and TCs so i disagree with Erolz that the ratio was 1:10
My point is nobody was innocent in this. Furthermore I AM NOT BUYING the myth that from 1960-1974 the GCs were fighting for freedom.

I don't think anyone said they GCs were fighting for freedom up to 1974. But certainly up to the early 1960s they weren't happy with the Constitution we were left which was non-democratic and made the President moribund. Then in 1964, Turkey's first direct attack, we were fighting for survival and had to call in the UN.

And yes, the figures for GCs being killed do suggest that within the small minority of numbers that made up the TCs, there were far more criminals, proportionally. If we had the equivalent number of criminally-minded people, there would have been far far more TCs killed than there were. We have more to worry from TCs than they do from us. But that's history now and we need to focus on getting Turkey off our soil.

[MR-from-NG]

I will take this opportunity, though, to say how deeply sorry I am that Erolz's family suffered along with so many others, from something that should never have happened, that was preventable if we all accepted democracy.

Well done GIG.
Next step should be to stop getting your bitterness out on Erolz. You are just fighting the wrong person my dear. It's just like getting it out on Kikapu, or Bir... wrong-wrong-wrong.

Are you suggesting its ok for her to unleash hell on the rest of us?